Hunter Patch 5.0.4 Guide

Posted: by Frostheim


Grandpappy Frostheim's guide to patch 5.0.4

The pre-Mists of Pandaria patch 5.0.5 will hit on Tuesday, August 28th, bringing with it many of the Mists of Pandaria hunter class changes. This patch 5.0.4 guide covers the big changes you need to know to optimize your hunter for the month between 5.0.4 and the actual release of the expansion, including new hit and expertise caps, best hunter specs, as well as talent, glyph and other changes.

See the Wow Insider Mists 85-90 hunter leveling guide for leveling info — but let’s be honest, hunter leveling is easysauce.

Patch 5.0.4 Hunter Changes Overview

As soon as patch 5.0.4 hits, your talents will be wiped. The new talent system will be in place, the new glyphs will be available, your shots will be able to be dodged,minimum range will be gone and you’ll no longer be using a melee weapon. Your ranged weapon will have lots more stats and do more damage.

The good news is that if you’re BM or SV you should end up doing more damage in patch 5.0.4, though you’re rotation will be more complex. You’ll also positively be drowning in focus until Mists of Pandaria releases and you level up away from your Wyrmstalker gear set bonuses. If you’re MM however, you’ll be respeccing.

Okay, we got a lot of ground to cover here, so let’s get to it!

Patch 5.0.4 Hunter Hit and Expertise Caps (level 85)

The first thing you’ll need to do after the patch lands is reforge for the new hit and expertise caps (wait until after the patch though — your gear will be changing slightly with no melee weapon / buffed ranged weapon). Starting in patch 5.0.4 hunter shots can be dodged, even if you’re hit-capped. You need expertise to prevent these shots (and your pet attacks) from being dodged. You can read the WHU Hunter Expertise Guide for more details.

The hit rating conversion is changing, and the hit cap is lowering. Both the hit and expertise caps against a raid boss are 7.5%.  Here’s what you need to know for level 85 patch 5.0.4:

102.446 hit rating = 1% hit
102.446 expertise rating = 1% expertise
769 hit rating to be hit-capped against a boss (7.5%)
769 expertise rating to be expertise-capped against a boss (7.5%)

PvP hit cap = 308 (3%)
PvP expertise cap = 308 (3%)

Draenei hit cap = 666 hit rating vs raid boss / 205 PvP
Dwarf & Troll expertise cap = 666 expertise rating vs boss / 205 PvP

Your pet should inherit both hit rating and expertise rating from the hunter. Every 1% hit will give your pet 0.5% hitand 0.5% expertise. Thus if you are both hit and expertise capped, then your pet will be as well.

Note: your pet attacks will also be able to be parried. In Cataclysm if the hunter was hit-capped the pet could not be parried; starting in patch 5.0.4 that is changing. Your pet can only be parried when attacking from the front, which only happens when your pet is tanking. If someone else is tanking, your pet will attack from behind, and attacks from behind cannot be parried. So this will affect PvP & solo huntering, but not raiding.

Getting hit-capped and expertise capped shouldn’t be that hard if you’re rocking the Wyrmstalker set (chest & hands provide hit). That alone gets you most of the way there with 437 rating on Raid Finder, 499 normal, and 570 heroic. Add Zeherah’s Dragonskull Crown (no heroic version) and you’re already over the new hit cap and can reforge away into expertise. Even without Z’s helm you should be looking pretty good. And of course if you can get your hands on the Seal of Primordial Shadow you can have some expertise to start off — though it’s a very low drop rate from any DS boss.

Best Hunter Spec in Patch 5.0.4

[Updated 9/1] Right now it’s looking like at level 85 BM is getting a substantial DPS boost out of the patch changes. BM is the top DPS spec right now, with SV just slightly behind and MM just slightly behind that. You can indeed play as the spec of your choice now; however, BM and SV are probably going to bring a bit more dps than MM.

Best Hunter Talents in Patch 5.0.4

Patch 5.0.4 hunter talent tree

Patch 5.0.4 will introduce the new hunter talent system, where we have just six tiers of talents and must choose one of three talents at each tier. If you want you can go look at the full hunter talent list. In patch 5.0.4 we’ll have access to the first 5 tiers of hunter talents. The first 3 tiers offer no DPS benefit, and you can take the talent that you think works best for your play style: shore up your weaknesses or take talents that work well for the raid content that you’re working on.

The next two tiers both offer DPS gains, and once we have DPS gains we can do some math to calculate the best talent choice for a given hunter spec. Tier four is the focus regen tier, and tier five is the extra DPS ability tier. Here’s a rundown of what you might want to consider for each tier, depending on your spec:

  • Level 15 Talents: the Disengage tier. Lots of awesome things that happen when you Disengage. Take what works best for your playstyle (for raiders this is really a choice between disengaging more often, or having the speed boost after disengaging).
  • Level 30 Talents: the CC tier. For PvP Silencing Shot remains the obvious choice, and for 5-mans Wyvern Sting is going to be what you want. Note that Wyvern Sting no longer applies a DoT when it breaks, making it better CC than ever.
  • Level 45 Talents: the self-heal tier. Spirit Bond offers the most overall healing, while Exhilaration offers the best burst heal (and is probably the PvP option of choice). Aspect of the Iron Hawk is better for raids where you’ll be taking lots of unavoidable damage.
  • Level 60 Talents: the focus regen tier. I recommend Dire Beast for all specs. With the ridiculous focus regen we’re going to have at level 85 with the new Steady/Cobra shot focus regen levels plus our set bonus, it’s incredibly hard to get maximum use out of Fervor. In fact, you’ll usually end up doing nothing but casting Arcane Shot and your signature shot during the Fervor focus over time, and your Serpent Sting will fall off. If you use a Cobra Shot to keep it up, you’ll cap on focus and lose some of the benefit. MM’s pairs of Steady Shots are even harder to maintain.
  • Level 75 Talents: the pet tier. I recommend going with A Murder of Crows for SV or MM, and taking Lynx Rush for BM. Keep in mind that Lyx Rush will hit multiple targets if there’s more than one target: this is good for AoE but on fights where you don’t want to hit side targets Blink Strike is a better option.

You can change your talents anytime you aren’t in combat by spending 1 Dust of Disappearance to remove one talent. Alternatively you can still visit the trainer to wipe all the talents for a gold cost, and you’ll need to visit the trainer to wipe out a spec to let you choose a new spec, also for a gold cost.

Patch 5.0.4 Hunter Rotations

All hunter specs have a more complicated rotation in patch 5.0.4, and indeed in Mists of Pandaria, due to the fact that our best talent choices give us additional buttons to push in our rotation. The core rotation doesn’t change; however, we’ll want to toss our A Murder of Crows / Dire Beast / Lynx Rush/Blink Strike below our signature shot in priority (don’t push back your signature shot for the shiny new buttons).

For reference, you can see the current Cataclysm rotations if you’re unfamiliar: BM Rotation, SV Rotation, MM Rotation.

Here are some spec specific rotation notes:

  • BM Rotation: Use Dire Beast and Lynx Rush on cooldown, but don’t delay your Kill Command to do so. Note that Kill Command is ridiculously more awesome in patch 5.0.4: you can hit Kill Command when your pet is up to 25 yards away and the attack will register, and furthermore your pet will charge in at your target super fast after hitting KC. So Kill Command works better and works more often. It is a joy to use.
  • SV Rotation: Use Dire Beast and A Murder of Crows on cooldown, but don’t delay your Explosive Shot or Black Arrow to do so. Note that Lock and Load is much more awesome: the new mechanics of the proc mean you can no longer clip ticks of Explosive Shot no matter what. So when you get Lock & Load, just spam those Explosive Shots. Of course with your crazy focus regen, you may want to weave in an Arcane Shot between the first and the second Explosive Shot just to prevent focus capping.
  • MM Rotation:  Use Dire Beast and A Murder of Crows on cooldown, but don’t delay your Chimera Shot to do so. Note that Improved Steady Shot is being replaced by Steady Focus, which is much better. In addition to boosting focus regen, Steady Focus also means you only need to hit Steady Shot pairs every 10 seconds, rather than every 8 seconds. I recommend using an Arcane Shot rotation and only hardcast Aimed Shot while under haste effects. The MM rotation is harder than ever to manage: things like the free Aimed Shot proc, the free Dire Beast every 30 sec and Kill Shot all disrupt the rotation making it incredibly focus rich when you need to hit those buttons — which in turn makes it harder than ever to keep up the pairs of Steady Shot without focus capping. It’s a lot more work to do substantially less damage than the other specs. At level 90 it’s a bit better, though the damage is still low.

Hunter Glyphs in Patch 5.0.4

Glyphs are once again undergoing an overhaul. The general design goal was to put choice back in glyph selection by removing glyphs that increase DPS. On the glyph front, they did a better job of making that happen than with talents. There are no longer any Prime glyphs: just Major and Minor. And the minor glyphs are minerer than ever, often providing nothing more than a cosmetic gain (of which I’m a big fan).

You can hop over and check out the complete list of Mists of Pandaria Hunter Glyphs and choose the ones you like best. There are certainly going to be glyphs that work best for specific fight strategies, and the new glyphs make PvP hunter giggle with glee, but for the most part take the glyphs that you like — there isn’t any single “best” glyph choice.

Here are a handful of glyphs that probably make the short list for raid glyphs:

Major

Minor

Hunter Pet Changes in Patch 5.0.4

Along with hunters, our hunter pets are going to get some substantial changes in the patch. You will get to choose whether to make any pet Ferocity, Cunning, or Tenacity. Pets no longer have talents: instead their abilities are determined by the spec that you choose. Ferocity are the best DPS pets, Tenacity are for tanking / soloing, and Cunning are for PvP.

You can change your pet’s spec at any time just by opening the pet window in the talent pane and choosing a new spec (out of combat, of course).

Patch 5.0.4 pet spec choices

In general pets have lost a tiny bit of health, and a more substantial chunk of armor, as well as a touch of avoidance for tenacity tank pets. Pets are also pretty focus-starved (non-BM in particular) making it sometimes difficult for the pet to use abilities that cost focus other than their basic attacks (like Dash or Thunderstomp).

Very Important!! – the pet’s Growl ability has changed so that it is now a true taunt! This means that if your pet growls at a mob, that mob will be forced to attack the pet! While this ability typically doesn’t work on bosses, it does mean that you absolutely must have growl turned off at all times unless you really want your pet to be tanking. It also gives us a nice new tool to pull aggro off a healer with a pet taunt. This is a powerful improvement of the pet ability: use it wisely.

 

Hunter Buffs in Patch 5.0.4

Raid buffs and debuffs are once again being overhauled and streamlined even more, and hunter buffs along with them. Trueshot Aura is now a default hunter ability that all hunter specs get automatically. Some buffs/debuffs have been removed and a new mastery buff has been added — this also changes which buffs hunter pets bring.

The following raid buffs are being removed in 5.0.4: 30% bleed damage, armor, mana regen, 6% spellpower, 3% damage done, Str & Agility, Intellect. You can see a full list of raid buffs in the Mists of Pandaria Raid Buffs article.

Other Hunter Changes

Above are all the really big changes, but it’s worth highlighting some of the other hunter changes coming in 5.0.4 that don’t require their own section:

  • Shots that are missed or dodged now only cost 20% of the focus that they would otherwise have cost. So it still hurts to be dodged, but not quite as much.
  • Readiness is turning into a default hunter ability, that all hunter specs will have without having to spend a talent on it.
  • Steady Shot and Cobra Shot will generate 14 focus per shot, rather than the 9 focus per shot of Cataclysm.
  • Trap Launcher is awesomely cooler — it now toggles on or off. If it’s on every trap is launched; if it’s off every trap drops at your feet.
  • Hunters are getting a couple of knockback effects in Mists. One is a level 90 talent, Powershot, but with the Glyph of Explosive Trap we can also turn our Explosive Trap into a sweet AoE knockback. Do not use in groups/raids without raidleader okay, or they’ll hate you for it and rightly so.
  • There will be no more resistances, and no more spell penetration
  • Helm enchants are going away entirely — as will your existing one. There is nothing to replace this with and that’s just find.
  • Worth stressing again: minimum range is going away
  • Your ranged weapon will appear on your back
  • You will find your menu for mounts and vanity pets under its own icon (a horse head) on your main toolbar (down by the game menu).
  • Buffs and Debuffs have been consolidated into a single dropdown. The game will tell you what buffs you’re missing if you’re in a raid.
  • Really, if you remember just one thing remember to turn off growl!

Whew! I think that’s everything hunters really need to know for patch 5.0.4. Can you guys think of anything substantial that I missed that should be included?

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  1. You are awesome, Frost. Thanks for all the work you do for all of us!

  2. Omogon says:

    well now…back to BM the “spec of my youth” and favourite even though I’ve been mostly MM since the big BM – BC nerf.

    It took me months to get the hang of focus once mana went away ( I’m a slow learner) I expect I’ll be a long time getting used to not standing way back and shooting and getting in a panic when a mob or hostile player gets too close.

  3. RukoJenkins says:

    Thx Frost, really, your work helps me keep my job.

  4. Yvvii says:

    Just how much worse than the other specs is MM?

    MM is the only spec I can really stomach (Wouldn’t even be playing WoW without this spec – which is bad having just forked over £70 to upgrade me and my gf!) and I am just about to hit 85 and start learning instances etc and I don’t want everyone asking me to swap specs unless I really have to.

    • Lukers says:

      If you are just now turning 85 on your first hunter, I would suggest you try out the other specs before you completely shut them down. I leveled as MM back in Wrath and never touched SV until early Cata heroics, but fell in love in a matter of days. Personally, I always found MM as the “maintenance” spec, which certainly can be fun, but I found more enjoyment from the rhythm that the SV rotation provides. (albeit I enjoyed it a little more during the 3 CS – ES rotation of 4.0-4.2.)

      • Yvvii says:

        Sadly it is concept rather than playstyle which puts me off the other specs, but I guess it isn’t looking like I will have much choice unless some buffs come along.

        Time to look at some new guides…

    • Frostheim says:

      MM is substantially behind — it’s not close. Until it gets buffed you really want to be playing another spec.

      • Tyler Dube says:

        With BM, being the “good” spec, what is the “good” pet to bring for BM. Spirit cat? Spirit Wolf? etc.

      • Romolus says:

        idk, I liked BM, I still think it’s okay, but Survival, they need to kill that spec in imho, leave a few iconic abilities, drop Explosive shot, and just call it what it really should be, the Dark Ranger spec.

        I’m just gonna do what I’ve always done. Play MM, know where to stand (aka that is not in the fire) and let the ‘I wanna top the chart’ Luci’s and real huntards do what they do best… stand in the fire.

    • Jazzifizzle says:

      I was the same way. Tier 11 and 12 MM was pretty good, but then in Tier 13 Surv was abosultely god. My guild forced me to change. It took a while until I got the rhythm of Surv, but I just watched a lot of guides and did research on it. Now it feels very natural.

      You just have to put the time and practice =D

    • Jazzifizzle says:

      I was the same way. Tier 11 and 12 MM was pretty good, but then in Tier 13 Surv was abosultely god. My guild forced me to change. It took a while until I got the rhythm of Surv, but I just watched a lot of guides and did research on it. Now it feels very natural.

      You just have to put the time and practice =D

      • Yvvii says:

        I am not sure I am sold on the idea of relying on my pet so much (MM felt like the pet was just there to help rather than being key, which I like because I felt important) but the BM rotation (If it stays like it is and I am reading it right) allows for a lot more shots in the same time so takes more advantage of the changing Forsaken racial, so will be a (Probably small) DPS buff even if MM gets buffed to the same damage.

        I guess I can take solace from nice pet models and damage.

    • Anonymous says:

      You have to respec. They will expect you to respec. MM has been dead since FL. So plan on either changing or respeccing, its as simple as that. To be a really good hunter, you need to be able to adapt to the changes Bliz expects us to change. Sorry buddy. Besides, MM is really boring and frustrating anyways, why would ANYONE ever play it unless its the TOP DPS spec.

      • Nitestalkrr says:

        I have to disagree about MM being boring and frustrating, I spent many hours on the training dummies practicing, and until 5.0.4, I was always in the top five dps in any lfr and top 3 in any regular DS 10. Occasionally, a SURV would edge me out, but not often. 4.3 took away a solid haste cap to aim for, but in practicing, I discovered that around 2150 haste was best and after hit-capping, reforge everything into crit. I kept two tier pcs for the focus buff, and my rotation was as graceful as a ballerina dancing. But you had to BE a MM Hunter, not a SURV Hunter trying to be a MM.
        As a GM in one of my servers oldest guilds, you lost me at, “have to respec” anyway. I trust my guildies to know their class well enough, to bring their “A” game, without embarassing them by telling them to respec. If they don’t work out, they don’t get invited again.
        I started out as a BM Hunter, BC’s nerfs caused me to learn MM. It was tough curbing some of my favorite pets, and sorta redundant prancing around SW with them. I had a sad :(( face for a long time. I’ve been like a little kid in a candy store with BM since 5.0.4. My Hunter RAWKZ the dps charts again with some of my favorite Pets that I haven’t said “HI” to in a long time. Thank you Blizz, for giving us back our bond with our pets, both in battle and prancing around SW showing off :)) I’m smiling once again.

      • Aidenkai says:

        I completely agree. You should respec. The part about bringing your “A” game is always a must. Bringing your “A” game means not only your skill to not stand in fire, or know the rotation, but also to know your class. That means, knowing EACH and EVERY spec. This stuff about playing any spec you want, is just nonsense. If you want to have fun playing any spec you want….DON’T RAID, go RP and do meaningless dungeons and quests, otherwise play the best dps spec. Make sure everyone else in your raid, plays their best spec. Blizzard changes things for a reason. If you have only played one spec since you started WoW and continue to be stubborn and not learn the other specs, to the best of your ability, THEN YOUR NOT A TRUE HUNTER. MM was great in and before FL. But MM is a dead spec ATM, as you have read from this sites owner and operator MANY TIMES. You come here for the advice, TAKE IT. Don’t be butt hurt, just because you don’t get to play your preference, adapt and become a true hunter. Surv isn’t really even viable for DPS atm tbh. MM is an absolutely boring spec to play, EVEN tho I topped meters with it when it was good. The only good thing about MM when it was good was double the DPS cooldowns. Now every spec gets readyness so what is the point for MM atm? Now if they boost it and make it good again, you will see me switch, til then I am enjoying BM as I did when BC was active, and after waiting 4 years, I finally get to use some of my nice BM only pets. All in all, its been a good change.

  5. Dis says:

    Is Glyph of Fetch not available until MoP? Was hoping to test this out before the xpac so bummer…

    Also, you may want to mention specifically how hunter buffs are changing since all hunters bring only 10% AP by default so if you need that melee haste buff you better go out and tame a hyena or something else that brings it.

    And finally, there really is no reachable expertise cap in PVP against agility classes like rouges and ferals since they can easily hit 25-30% dodge right now. My advice if you see one in a BG that is fully decked out in PVP gear would be to make use of that new disengage glyph and run the other way or be prepared for 1/4 of your shots including non trap cc to be dodged.

    • Frostheim says:

      Oooh, good call, I just added in a brief section on the buff changes.

      Yeah, the dodge cap is kinda like spell pen: there’s no one number that works against everyone, but so far the PvP folks are considering 3% to be the number to go for.

    • Anonymous says:

      All MoP glyphs were released with tuesdays patch

  6. Brugs says:

    What’s up with Trap launcher too, just to be sure?

  7. Kaneli says:

    Small thing but SV rotation links to MM rotation and the other way around.

    Thanks again for all your awesome work Frost!

  8. Dharion says:

    Some comments and a question.

    Comments: So far, definitely digging the changes, tho I am a bit curious about why a PVP hunter would stay in fox….
    LOVE the Trap Launcher changes, tho I’m still amazed that people act shocked when I use traps in a dungeon.
    Glyph of Fireworks? REALLY? Have to ask, what’s the point?

    and not an R.I.P, more like a burn in Hell minimum range, tho it still amazes me how many people say Hunters should have a minimum range…..

    now, the question: If we’re losing melee weapons, do we get paid for the one we have, i.e. will in be in our bags and able to be sold?

    • Jaeger says:

      Yes, your melee just gets unequiped (at least that’s how it is in beta). You can still equip it instead of your ranged weapons but can’t really do anything except melee auto-attack…

    • Helza says:

      Yeah it just gets unequiped, just be glad you’re using relics, those nice little epic relics will become GREY items which will be totally useless except for vendoring :P

  9. HuntressRachel says:

    Thanks for all the hard work you do Frost, I know the hunter community really appreciates it!

  10. Freyana says:

    Ugh, good to know about MM. Haven’t played SV since Wrath (I don’t do anything but dungeons and LFR on my hunter, and MM currently pulls excellent DPS for me in those situations). Guess I’ll spend today relearning the SV rotation, heh.

  11. Omogon says:

    @Yvvii……try BM …it’s very different from MM but quite fun. I have been raiding as MM since early Wrath…I have never liked SV so I’ll go back to BM and just “park” my MM spec until it’s buffed or the others get nerfed. Trust me “big red pet” is always a hoot :)

    • Yvvii says:

      Yeah BM is the plan, I don’t like the idea of SV at all, but 2 headed dogs and spirit beasts really take the sting out of it at least.

  12. Llyrra says:

    Another great job Frostheim and a huge thank you! You’ve made everything so clear and accessible that I’m looking forward to raiding again (it’s been a long, long down time). The thing that makes me most giddy however, is that I’ll see my weapon on my back (sure did miss the quiver)… it IS the little things :)

  13. Dileth says:

    Thanks a ton for all your hard work!

  14. ZeroUm says:

    “Starting in patch 5.0.4 changing aspects will now trigger the global cooldown. ”

    Mists of Pandaria Beta – Build 15983:

    Aspect of the Beast no longer has a cooldown.
    Aspect of the Cheetah no longer has a cooldown.
    Aspect of the Fox no longer has a cooldown.
    Aspect of the Hawk no longer has a cooldown.
    Aspect of the Pack no longer has a cooldown.

    • Itukaaj says:

      It is either broke or tooltip is wrong. The GCD is now triggered on Aspect change. Go to the official forums and join the rage against the machine on this topic.

    • Snorkelpoof says:

      Aspect used to share a CD that was off of the GCD. But now that they are on the GCD there is no longer a reason for them to have their own separate CDs.

    • Greatmelinko says:

      Well now it seems they have removed the global cd on aspects but put a 1 second cd on them so once you change aspects you have to wait 1 second to change to next one.

      • Frostheim says:

        Yup — they just reverted aspects back to the way they worked before the patch!

      • Nitestalkrr says:

        I’ve never been a big fan of ‘aspects’ anyway. My opinion, which doesn’t count for much, is, how a Hunter shoots and moves should be more realistic, not governed by a button press, we have enough buttons to remember already, between Pets, traps, our shot rotation, and special abilities. A Hunter should move quicker out of combat. In combat, if he’s standing in place, hit and expertise should factor 1/1, if he’s moving and shooting, those stats should drop dramatically for instant AND timed shots. BAM! Three aspects eliminated just by making a Hunter shoot and move realistically

      • Mandragorn says:

        “Aspect of the Iron Hawk is better for raids where you’ll be taking lots of unavoidable damage, and is essentially worthless for PvP since you won’t be in Aspect of the Hawk anymore (more on that later)”

        I think you had that last bit in there for when they still had the GCD on aspects, didnt see anywhere else where you addressed that further down, maybe I missed it.

      • Frostheim says:

        Good call — missed that when I was updating for the aspects change.

  15. Solox says:

    I have been waiting for this article since the podcast posted on itunes! So helpful!

  16. Ominous says:

    This is a godly amount of information.
    Just what was required, just when required.
    Thanks.

  17. BigSal says:

    Frost,
    This was on MMO-Champion a few days ago and I’m not sure what it means. Does it mean they took the global cooldown away for our aspects?

    Aspect of the Beast no longer has a cooldown.
    Aspect of the Cheetah no longer has a cooldown.
    Aspect of the Fox no longer has a cooldown.
    Aspect of the Hawk no longer has a cooldown.
    Aspect of the Pack no longer has a cooldown.

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/2893-Mists-of-Pandaria-Beta-Build-15983

    • Frostheim says:

      No — the aspects used to have an independent shared internal cooldown. That was removed and they were put on the global cooldown instead.

      • Bloodtrailer says:

        Hey Frost, You put a lot of work into this and i appreciate your huge effort! Looks like imma gonna respec to BM from MM….lol o well i guess its time for a change…thanks for the talent tree data, i will spec with that for BM and make small adjustments to suit my style of play…tyvm again Frost

  18. Deavande says:

    First great job I all ways love your hard work. Second how can you say that about being in fox for pvp. I pvp a lot and very seldom go into fox now. If we are going to be swimming in focus why would you ever go to fox. Right now I run as survival in pvp, mostly random BGs, a little arena. Between TotH procs and the pvp bonus focus is not the bad. Come the patch we will have more focus then we have GCDs so AotF will be useless unless you want to gimp yourself. As for macros I would go with these.

    /cast [mod:alt] AotF, Cobra Shot
    /cast [mod:alt] AotH, Your main Shot Here

    Sure you will lose a global but if you just have to be in fox here you go.

    • Frostheim says:

      You’re only swimming in focus in raids, and the thing that causes you to get all that focus is cobra/steady with the wyrmstalker set bonus. So if you’re in hawk and on the move, you don’t get the focus.

      In competitive PvP you are always moving, which means you need to be in Fox to get your focus back. It is not remotely worth losing two GCDs just to cast a few shots.

      On the other hand, in casual BGs, I can see sitting still in hawk, especially if you’re sitting guarding a flag in camo ready to break out the powershot.

  19. lordmogg says:

    Quote ” And the minor glyphs are minerer than ever, ”

    easily the funniest thing youve ever written. My cuppa cha’ went all over the keyboard as i sprayed it in a attractive looping swirl over my boss.

    many thanks from Bournemouth UK

  20. Idk says:

    How is extreme soloing looking? Will it be the same or are there nerfs with the new pet talents?

  21. Cloudbuster says:

    I can’t believe Aspects on the GCD will stand. But then I’m expecting rationality. It makes them so utterly useless except in very long raid movement phases, and so utterly guts them for PvP, that I just can’t believe it.

    I am concerned for us against classes with high dodge. If we are essentially no threat to them, as seems to be the case, I anticipate bg after bg experiencing the fun of having every rogue/feral in the bg making a beeline to me for a free HK every time they see me. It’s not like rogues and ferals were easy kills for us before this change.

  22. BigSal says:

    They should have added the Icy Solace effect to scatter shot instead since we usually use Scatter Shot before trapping. If someone has a bleed and you scatter trap them, they scatter will break long before your trap lands and activates and the intended target can simply step aside. Icy Solace is only good for NPCs or if there’s a melee on you in which case you can drop a trap on your feet. But most of the time (in PVP), the cc target is the healer and Icy Solace won’t make a difference if the target has dots because you have to scatter first to launch the trap but the dot will break the scatter and the healer will simply move making Icy Solace useless. Opinions?

  23. BigSal says:

    Ok, so as far as I know the game has 3 immmunities: Mage Ice Block, Pally Bubble, and Hunter Deterrence. For reasons I don’t understand, hunters got shafted. Mages and Pallys can use their immunities as a trinket. Hunter can only use Deterrence while under %100 control of toon. Example, doing 2s with a rogue, we go against mage/healer, mage gets sapped and i trap healer right away…. Pop offensive cooldowns and start casting Aimed Shot…….mage ice blocks without having to use trinket… now your opener is lost and you wasted all your offensive cooldowns. Same thing with a pally! Also, why does their imminities remove ALL damage while ours stops new incoming damage! A feral druid puts all his bleeds on you and can just sit back and laugh while you die from the bleeds while in deterrence. A mage or a pally can simply get rid of all of them with their immunities…. oh yeah, the mage gets to do this twice and the pally can smash your face in while he is immune to everything so there’s no kiting because you can’t slow him. I honestly wish someone would tell me why our immunity sucks so bad when compared to the others. What’s the reason? Just because?

    • Architect says:

      Please re-read the tool tip. Deterrence is not an immunity. It “decreases attackers’ chance to hit the hunter and increases the hunter’s chance to deflect spells and ranged attacks by 100%” but no where does it say it provides “Immunity” which is what the Mage and Pally spells do. If you’ve ever attacked a hunter with Deterrence up you will notice it says “Miss”, not “Immune” like with a Mage Ice Block or one of the two Paladin spells.

      Ours is meant to prevent incoming damage, the 30% reduction was only added so we’d have a half-***ed excuse for a damage reduction CD.

      On the subject of your Mage vs. Aimed shot : well duh, would you sit there while someone was casting a giant *** shot at you? This is going to happen. You choose to pvp as MM you’re going to have this happen. Most MM pvp’ers i know only use AS when it is instant and free because – once again duh – if you start casting a big old shot like AS is, they’re going to see it coming as much as a DK casting Army. More so if they’re paying even the least bit of attention to your buffs because they’ll see Rapid Fire and know something is up.

      • Architect says:

        Okay, let me expand that second paragraph some. While you could argue the Mage and Paladin spells are also for incoming damage, that is not what we see it used for most of the time. Most of the time when a paladin or mage uses their Immunity spell they are low on health. They use it as more of an “Oh crap! I’m dying/About get my anus ripped open button”. Most of the time, if you swap targets off the mage, s/he’ll pop out, blink and run behind something and try to get his health back up. A paladin will try to either kill you or heal himself up.

        Hunter’s are designed to be a range class. If that paladin is getting close enough w/o the immunity for you to need Deterrence. And that includes Rets, that is what glyph of conc shot is for. If they do use an immunity to get to you, then problem is solved, deterrence, wait 4 secs, Disengage and chances are by the time they get to you again, the immunity is gone unless you meet the dreaded “disengaging uphill” boss.

        On the Mage front Deterrence is to be used much like a “Bend Over Here It Comes Again” button. Okay minus the bend over part, but what i mean is that much like the Mage with your aimed shot, if you pay attention to their buffs/have an addon that does, then you will see when they pop they’re major CDs and be able to Deterrence through them.

      • Architect says:

        “If that paladin is getting close enough w/o the immunity for you to need Deterrence” you have bigger issues and my birthday is the 5th of October, i would really like an edit button.

  24. Galatheon says:

    Hey Frost ! I have a question:

    I’m BM Raider since BC. So now we have a good DPS for Raids and Duns and fun fun fun. You post: Level 75 Talents: the pet tier. I recommend going with A Murder of Crows for SV or MM, and taking Lynx Rush for BM. Be aware, however, that if there is more than one possible target up, using Lynx Rush will cause your pet to bounce around, rather than outputting full damage on your primary target, in which case Blink Strike is a better BM talent.

    Rush Lynx generates damages 200% of the total 4 seconds. On a single target it strikes 9 times and each with 200%? I still do not understand the operation because with a 1.5 min CD might not be worth .. I currently use Blink Strike and is very good with a CD of 20 seconds. In the case which would be best? Blink or Lynx?

  25. Galatheon says:

    Here:

    Blink Strike
    100 yd range
    Instant 20 sec cooldown
    Causes your pet to instantly teleport behind an enemy target up to 40 yards away from your pet and inflict 600% normal damage.

    The only problem is that I tested .. Certain bosses like Gu Cloudstrike (azure Serpente Phase) when we use Blink, the pet can stay with bug and Kill Command does not work because the pet gets stuck behind the scene. So sometimes it can happen. But he is very good at times that we do not have to focus or Kill Arcane. Now just need to see how will be the following: Mastery will now be important to BM?

  26. Venadin says:

    Are you sure on Blink Strike over Lynx Rush for BM? The ability to stack BW, Rabid, and trinkets for multiple hits can be a good burst at 90. I have not tested it much at 85. Thre is a lot of discussion on this topic from Zeherah and Lokrick on the EJ forums including the lost gcds fron blink and that the basic and auto attacks still function while lynx rush is on. For multiple targets, I combine this with a chimera’s frost breath.

    • Frostheim says:

      Unless abilities inherit differently to Blink Strike vs Lynx Rush — the 600% on a 20 sec cooldown is a bit better than 200% 9 times at a 1.5 min cooldown.

      I’m assuming that Rabid, BW, etc all inherit the same to Blink Strike and Lynx Rush.

      Or wait a minute — does Blink Strike trigger the GCD for the hunter? — I have to double check that, because if so, that would really hurt.

      • Galatheon says:

        I believe it would be better if Lynx had a CD less well near the BW. I believe they would be more attractive not? adding trinkets with CD alike;

      • Zeherah says:

        Blink Strike and Lynx Rush both trigger GCD. Also keep in mind that readiness will get you more value from an extra Lynx Rush than an extra Blink Strike. That plus the cooldown overlap definitely makes a difference.

        That being said, it seems that Lynx Rush can also cause pet attacks (including the Lynx Rush ones themselves) to parry/block during the time it’s active, so that hurts it a bit.

  27. Chessier says:

    Your work is very much appreciated Frostheim. Thanks. Just a quick question, as an SV Hunter at what point would readiness be best to use?

  28. Ryshat says:

    No changes to attacking from behind? NPCs can still dodge us, but can’t block/parry? Will it be better to move into minimum range for the lack of dodge/parry resistance or does a ranged attack, even at point blank, still count as a ranged “dodgeable” attack?

    • Frostheim says:

      In patch 5.0.4 our shots can be dodged even when we’re attacking from behind in melee range. They cannot be blocked or parried, and our pet should not be blocked or parried when attacking from behind.

  29. Adaon says:

    Great guide!

    I would say, though, that Wyvern Sting vs Silencing Shot is dependent upon your raid/group comp. You may not need another CC on top of traps / scatter, plus whatever other CC the raid has. But you might need a backup interrupt, which Silencing Shot is. For instance, on phase two of 10m-heroic Nef, if your pillar’s Interrupt has Burning Cinders (or whatever it is that makes you have to run away), having that backup Interrupt can be invaluable. Neither is the “right” choice, but putting Silencing Shot purely in the PvP column short sells it a bit.

  30. Induates says:

    Thanks for the great guide :)

    On the extreme soloing front, are tenacity pets still missing Intervene? That seems to have been essential in so many of the more impressive soloings lately.

    The aspects change does seem sucky – I was hoping they might drop aspects and make it so you got a stacking buff the longer you stood still, and lost it as soon as you moved (same mechanic as many boss fight debuffs). This’d be a nice way to encourage reduced movement without all the annoying button pushes.

  31. foxtrap says:

    as a SV hunter i wish the glyph of explosive trap also removed it from the Black Arrow cool down as of right now it will be pointless

  32. Berryz says:

    Might be learning to play BM then (finally spiritbeasts), even trough DS I’ve been mostly playing MM since I still beat my SV raiding buddies. It’s gonna be hard not to play MM anymore, hope it gets buffed so it’s at least not behind to much.

    • Anonymous says:

      MM is dead, I am not sure what your “Buddies” were doing wrong, or if their gear was lacking, but you shouldn’t have even been close to an equal geared/skilled SV hunter. I am pretty sure you wouldn’t beat me. May take a look at BM and SV vs. MM.

      • Nitestalkrr says:

        A closed mind leaves no room for adaptation. Maybe your MM ‘buddies’ weren’t very good at their class.

  33. Lumberg says:

    Aspects on the gcd, the perpetually horrid state of MM, and BoP Spirit of Harmony are a few recent reminders that this dev team is capable of some bizarre design decisions. I was actually entertaining the idea that they would release Mists without any glaring balance/design issues. If they’re making these kinds of changes this close to release I’d say the chances of that are slim to none.

    • Vvulf says:

      Not to mention that because of the changes to aspects one of our level 45 talents is now completely useless in pvp (Aspect of Iron Hawk). I thought blizzard wanted to encourage compelling choices …

      • Lumberg says:

        Well the good news is they’ll probably go back on the Aspect change. It’s been universally condemned by the hunter community, not just the forum whiners. I understand they don’t want people macroing aspects into their shots, but this is a ham-fisted “solution”.

  34. Hollowhunter says:

    Would be awesome if our cobra/steady-shots were instant cast. That should make Blizzard re-work aspects and make our life easier. Could solve a LOT of trouble we have.

    Think about it…

    • Itukaaj says:

      There are issues with haste that would come into play. Also, you would be taking instant shots during the cooldown period unless you were locked out as well which would mean you would be getting 2 shots during a time you were designed for one.

      I think most PVE will work on stutter stepping in Hawk, work on positioning out of disengage our change their priorities to stock up focus and fire Arcanes on the move.

      PVP will be in Fox. It’s ironic that we get a useful PVP buff in Cheetah to actually give us an opportunity to use it that is then broken by Ghost Crawler on his throne of lies. We never get a PVP benefit without a broken mechanical nerf 4 expansions in a row now. And the thing is we are always nerfed in PVP by a mechanic change something that you can’t outplay.

      Sad MoP

  35. Iridar says:

    Thanks for the nice guide.
    I personally like the idea of Aspects on GCD. As it is now it is a _boring_ and _clunky_ mechanic. We are being pushed into either macroing aspects in all shots and “stance dance” as warriors do, or into manually switching aspects with every shot while on the move. It is nor fun nor interesting, and doesn’t show off individual skill. It’s just another thing you have to do to maximize your dps. Like you have to drink flasks etc.
    I wouldn’t mind if they were to remove aspects alltogether and make cobra/steady castable on the move baseline.
    5-7% more damage while in hawk is meaningless in pvp either way so no big loss there imo, hunters do ridicolous damage anyway.

    • Itukaaj says:

      Maybe a creative alternative is no hawk but something like sniper training across the specs rewarding people who plant their feet. For PVP fox is exclusively for (up till now) to regen focus on the move. Even though it gave focus if you were hit no hunter considered damage for focus a viable trade off. It was exclusively for Steady Shot on the move.

      Aspects are not fun gameplay anymore.

  36. bigbadhag says:

    I have played my hunter on the beta quite a bit and have noticed thrill of the hunt to be wayy better for SV than Fervor, especially for aoe situations. If your using thrill of the hunter your focus regen will feel equal if not better than t13 2 set.

    Its also good to note that blink strike should not be taken lightly for multi target fights the combination of blink strike and KC for BM is very beneficial for pet mobility.

  37. Winterhawk says:

    Could “Thrill of the Hunt” be a choice instead of Dire Beast? I ask because the focus regen on arcane shots at 30 percent would seem to be almost nonstop in gameplay to me. Additionally, if this is numerically competitive with Dire Beast I might prefer it as a talent because it requires no addition to my rotation – kind of a passive focus regen that would help me streamline my shot sequence as opposed to fitting another ability in on a cool down. Your thoughts?

  38. Aq says:

    Thank you, Frost!
    I’m doing a BM hunter happy dance right now…

    /cast Bestial Wrath
    /roar

    …can’t wait for Aug 28!

  39. adohokanda says:

    hey frostheim, first of all thanks for the guide. I havent been playing since the first tier of cata and just came back, just wanted to know whether it is worthwhile farming justice points now to get pre heroic gear in mop.

  40. Lumchan says:

    Thank you for all the work you have done Frostheim. Unfortunatly, I’m now a sad panda, er NELF. I love being a MM Hunter. Only time I ever really switch was to get the occasional “vanity hunter pet” to look at while they chase the stablemasters (especially Shai-hulud when you tell it the stablemaster has spice in their pockets)! Guess I’ll just have to start practicing the BM rotation. Tried SV, didnt like it, so I didn’t inhale.

    Welp, now that I’m kinda bummed out now, do yall think we’ll be able to solo Black Temple or Sunwell Plateau at level 90? Not only for transmog, but to try to get the legendary bow (though I have to admit, I think the crossbow off of the erader twins is a favorite even if I dont have it). Would like to get the weapons I like for xmog, but so hard to find raids going into those.

    Welp, here’s to hoping we somehow manage to hit lvl90 before Hallow’s End. Want the Headless Horseman’s horse so friggin bad!!!

    Once again thanks for all the work you’ve done not only for prepping us for Mists of Pandoria, but for everything you’ve done for the hunters throughout Warcraft.

    Lumchan/Albinodragon
    -Proud Ranger of the WHU Army!

  41. Sarane says:

    Frostheim, thank you so much for the guide; really appreciated :)

  42. Kznoll says:

    Great work Frostheim :)

  43. Saric says:

    I’m really disapointed in the fact that MM is getting such a nerf. I have no problem with MM being on the bottom of the dps pole but WHY is it “significantly” lower then the rest. And why do I feel like I am being forced to play a spec I really dont want to play. I was under the assumption that Blizz was trying to make all specs close in terms of dps and allowing the player to choose their style of play. Apparently I was mistaken

    • Aidenkai says:

      Playing any class, you should be required to learn ALL specs. Don’t just stick to MM, I personally hate it, long casting times for our best shot, MM was alright when it was top pre-DS, but overall, its crappy, kinda like SV was BC. Expand your gaming experience and learn to play all your specs, then you wont have to whine and complain when Bliz nerfs your special spec that you like to play.

  44. Dis says:

    It seems MM has been pretty overlooked this expansion. It had several key abilities shifted to talents or made baseline but had no new mechanics added and the whole focus tier makes the double steady shot mechanic feel very clunky.

    I wouldn’t be surprised to see a minor pass made on MM mechanics in 5.1/5.2 but I think we’re stuck with it the way it is for now with maybe some buffs made to it’s shots/CDs

  45. Kevin says:

    I get that perhaps the current aspect situation is not ideal, but I’ve always HATED aspect dancing. I’d rather they just get rid of aspects entirely and put variations of their effects directly into class traits. I’m happy that Blizzard seems to be trying to make it so that aspect dancing isn’t part of playing the class well.

  46. Clochbear says:

    Just gotta say Thanks Frostfor all of your hard work! I have fought the nay sayers by allways keeping SV my main spec with BM as secondary. Dang sure glad I did!

    thanks again
    Wasabibear (clochbear)

  47. Harvoc says:

    Well, the aspect changes ROYALLY FUCKED UP the hunter class. As you said, every PvPer will be in Aspect of the Fox all the time as being able to regenerate focus on the move outweighs the slight (6.5% as you stated) damage boost from using Aspect of the Hawk during instant-cast shots. As for PvE, well it seems like people will just be staying in one aspect for long periods of time as two global cooldowns is an awful lot. Funny how Blizzard wanted us to actually think about changing aspects with this nerf but then just made it such that we will never change aspects ever again.

    As for raiding, I will be testing out my SV spec but will most likely switch to BM to prepare for the next expansion. I’ve never played BM in PvE before so… As for PvP, I will be testing out my MM spec as well but will again most likely be switching to BM to prepare for the next expansion. Like PvE, I have never played BM in PvP either…

    Also, Frost, in the glyphs section, I’m wondering why you didn’t include the Glyph of Deterrence? 20% more damage reduction on the only damage reduction cooldown (Raptor Strike and thus the Raptor Strike glyph are gone and Aspect of the Iron Hawk isn’t really a cooldown nor will raiders be using Aspect of the Hawk as much as now because of the aspect changes) hunters have sounds pretty good to me.

    As for minor glyphs, I see a lot of potential for Stampede and the Stampede glyph. If one has all the raid buffs and debuffs covered, then using the Stampede glyph would be good but if not, then having a pet in your active pets that provides one of the missing buffs/debuffs would be awesome as the buff/debuff would be active on the boss during the burn phase. The only other situation that I see one would not use the Stampede glyph in PvP is if one has a Spirit Beast in their stable as extra heals is always nice. As for PvP, I’m assuming that one doesn’t want to use the glyph. Hunters will still be predominately using the Monkey in PvP but having pets that provide buffs/debuffs in one’s active pets would greatly increase DPS. One could also stack Spirit Beast’s and have a huge chunk of self-healing during Stampede. Another option would be to have other PvP pets besides the Monkey such as a Spider, Bat, etc. to overload one’s kill target with CCs but that just seems like overkill. So many possibilities! To me, the Stampede glyph really strikes me as a glyph that represents Blizzard’s vision for glyphs.

    • Harvoc says:

      “The only other situation that I see one would not use the Stampede glyph in PvP is if one has a Spirit Beast in their stable as extra heals is always nice.”

      I meant for the PvP in the above sentence to be PvE.

  48. Whitefyst says:

    Thanks for the summary.

    And I am bummed with the current state of MM.

    However, I will point out that the MM Arcane Shot (AS) focus dump rotation will not be that complex as elluded to in the post. Looking at the 3 major components, CS, SS, and AS, with focus balancing you generally have two “rotations” that are used with the number of shots listed below:

    CS-SSx2-ASx5
    CS-SSx3-ASx4

    Since the additional shots, MMM AIs, Dire Beast, and Murder of Crows, are all instant cast shots, they just replace an AS in the cycle when off CD, which is really not a big deal. Plus, concerning the MMM AI, it has a 10s window in which it can be cast anywhere inside it as long as it is cast before the next SS that is not the second SS in the pair to maintain Steady Focus so that you do not lose any possible stacks for the next MMM AI.

    For AS and its replacements, the priority is:

    MoC > DB > MMM AI > AS.

    • Frostheim says:

      The problem is with the high amount of focus regen in patch 5.0.4 when you have a Dire Beast or instant AI (or both) the rotation can become unwieldly focus positive. You can’t dump enough focus before needing another steady pair (or at the very least it becomes very difficult). Likewise with Kill Shots.

      • Whitefyst says:

        As I have stated before, having too much focus and overcapping is not bad if you are performing your maximum DPS rotation.

        Overcapping is only bad when it is caused by unideal shot selection where you could have made better choices to use that focus and perform higher DPS.

        Btw, I just completed a AS or AI focus dump analysis last night (before the latest AI nerf), and it looks like with current shot numbers that the tipping point of AI cast time for wanting to switch from AS to AI has dropped from the about 1.8s to 1.9s guideline in Cata to about 1.4s in MoP and 1.5 to 1.6s with the T14 4P bonus.

        With the AI nerf, the cast time will be even lower. It looks like that unless AI gets buffed or AS nerfed, that AS will always be the shot we want to perform in MoP when unhasted. In fact, depending on the situation, it may stil be beneficial to use AS as the focus dump during BLs, which is unfortunate. I hope Blizzard buffs AI enough where at least AI is always benefical to cast during a BL with a reasonable amount of haste from gear.

        As it stands currently, without the T14 4P, we have to have enough overall haste where our SS casts are below the GCD in order to make it worthwhile to cast AI. THis requires at least 12.93% haste from gear during RF to make that situation.

        With the T14 4P, the situation is alleviated a little, but you still need enoug haste where your SS cast time is about 1.1s to make casting AI worthwhile.

  49. Nichara says:

    I really don’t want to give up on MM just when I’m finally getting good at it. If it’s as substantially behind as you say, I can’t believe that Blizz won’t buff it some to make it viable. Because if they change nothing, there’s no justification for using it period (even BM could be justified as a pvp spec before this) and I find it hard to believe that fits within Blizzard’s design philosophy. So I’m not giving up all hope on MM. However I plan to learn BM in the interim; been meaning to anyway and this is the perfect excuse. Still have to raid DS for the next month to stay in the game; my raid team’s sticking to normals anyway (except Morchok) so should have enough wiggle room to experiment. MM hunters please be vocal on the forums; don’t let MM die! I don’t mind being BM some of the time but I don’t like SV and don’t want to get forced into it because my preferred spec, that I’ve been playing for 2 years, suddenly got nerfed to the point of being non-viable in a raid.

    • Nichara says:

      I don’t understand why they’d want to nerf MM in the first place, it already wasn’t the top spec, but was good enough to be viable. But who knows how Blizzard thinks sometimes. I’m hoping this is just unintended consequences of the MoP changes and they fix it soon. I’d just as soon learn to play a monk instead if MM is nerfed to the point of uselessness. I can’t believe that Blizzard would want any spec to be useless, else why would they make it in the first place?

  50. Jonaleth says:

    This means we wont get new stable pet slots?
    Mines are full of rare petsand I rather not dismiss them forthe new rares.

  51. Diranux says:

    So with the latest beta/PTR patch and the Explosie shot nerf where will SV stand?

  52. Chrisbox says:

    Frost you speak of the “best hunter spec” but dont specify for pvp or pve purposes, do you think BM will be PVE viable? And how does it do in pvp now w/ a silence?

    • Bramman says:

      With the talent revamp all specs have access to the same talents, so all should be viable. I’m sure one will shine in certain pvp situations.

      • Whitefyst says:

        Currently, BM looks to be by far the best hunter spec at 90. After the recent nerf, simulations have SV and MM about even at about 10K DPS (about 9%) behind BM.

      • Frostheim says:

        That’s interesting — are you looking at level 85? I’m seeing MM more like 20% behind BM, though I haven’t retested with the recent MMO-C found changes.

      • Whitefyst says:

        I was using the most recent data from Zeherah:

        •BM- 107483.87 (2% nerf), Talents: dire beast, lynx rush, glaive toss (this patch brought dire beast above fervor again)
        •MM- 99429.07 (3.3% nerf), Talents: dire beast, murder, glaive toss
        •SV- 98728.49 (4.3% nerf), Talents: dire beast, murder, glaive toss

        I just estimated the 9%, but with doing the actual math is 7.5%.

        These are obviously level 90 numbers. I am not really concerned with level 85 numbers since it will just exist for a month, everyone will be relearning to play anyway, and since a large portion of the population have already reached their Cata raiding goals.

      • Frostheim says:

        Ah, okay, that jives pretty closely with what I’m seeing at level 90 — focusing on the month of level 85 for this article though, where I’m seeing MM super far behind.

  53. Tanathalas says:

    Frost, any word in the PTR on the new pet families that are already in game? Namely basilisk and water striders/bog striders?

  54. Hyrne says:

    Frostheim, long time reader, occasional poster. Thank you for taking the time for providing a clean, understandable home for all of Hunterkind.

    I do have a question though, with all these changes with aspects and talent trees…what’s your favorite type of car? I figure with all the Hunterishy questions you’re getting, a little something off topic does a brain good.

  55. Alasera says:

    I am mostly fine with this aspect GCD thing. It means I can be lazy in PvP 99% of the time and just sit in Fox. I see it possibly making things annoying in PvE though. I went ahead and deleted my double ability macros that I used for auto Aspect swapping in PvP. FREEDOM!

  56. Aq says:

    :(
    …I will miss aspect dancing. I may be the only person who thought it was fun, though, by the look of it…

  57. Ghedrhalla says:

    If there was a better way to correct the near unending cacophonous barrage of:
    *caw**pew**caw**pew**caw**pew**woof**pew**woof**pew* etc…
    They really would go for it rather than the brute-force way of slapping a GCD on the Aspects as they have done.
    Truth be told, we hunters played a big part in making this change come about by macro’ing For or Hawk onto every. single. shot.

    Perhaps if we can show them we can play nicely and not disrupt the gaming experience of others, Blizzard will reverse their decision. I’d really like to remove the replacement sound files I had to make so I could still hear Vent and the Boss calls over all my fellow hunters and their spams.

    • Kaneli says:

      I never did that (I just had a macro for switching between hawk and fox, because switching to fox when I didn’t have to move would be a dps loss), so can I opt out of this crap already. :<

  58. Mosotti says:

    Is the initial pet health problem fixed?

    • Tanathalas says:

      Yes, the pet health system looks to work much better in mists beta. I haven’t been on the ptr so I cannot say if that particular fix will be in next week’s patch or not though.

  59. Arizona says:

    Hi Frostheim,
    thank you for this perfect recap of the incoming changes. I had a look this morning at simcraft and was really shocked to see all 3 hunter specs at the bottom on places 20, 24 and 25 with T14H. It might be they are not perfectly up to date, but with the new beta build SV and MM take even more nerfs. We have 3 DPS specs, I think at least 1 should be in the Top 10, but thats seems unrealistic at the moment. I am a really sad panda…

    • Yvvii says:

      This makes me really sad, I was hoping to hit 85 by this weekend and join as many raids as I can to get some experience before MoP hits but it isn’t looking like anyone is even going to want a Hunter at all, nevermind one trying to learn the ropes.

  60. Ril says:

    The aspects thing just sucks now – I don’t see any reason to not simply implement two focus replenishing shots: a standstill one with high damage and a on the move one with lower damage and focus regen.

    Right now, I’d recommend using fervor (or maybe dire beast) in movement heavy fights.

  61. Nalikahna says:

    Thank you so much for the hard work! Gotta say that I’m really dissapointed of some of the changes since I am and always have been a MM hunter.

  62. Mysterical the huntress EU says:

    Your awesome Frost! Thanks alot! you have been a help and inspiration for me for years now… i really like this site, it is like, my hunter-mantor site lol… Keep it up..

    Greetings from Frostwhisper, EU realm.

    /purrrr

    Mysterical the huntress

  63. Johan Normén says:

    Dwarf & Troll expertise cap = 666 expertise rating vs boss / 205 PvP

    Will Troll get expertise in Panda? Know that Dwarf got it by Maces?
    Any other racial that changes? any site about it? must have miss that :(

  64. Paiste says:

    Can I ask why you’re using Spirit Bond over AotIH? It seems like healing 2% per 2 seconds is overshadowed by 10% AP AND 15% damage reduction.

    • Frostheim says:

      AotIH gives no extra AP — it’s just replacing Hawk, so it gives you the same AP bonus that hawk gave you. The only benefit of Iron Hawk is the 15% damage reduction.

  65. Arizona says:

    AotIH replaces the normal hawk, both have 10% AP. As for the self heal against damage reduction, that depends on your needs. I really prefer the self heal, because its always “on” and will cover smaller hits by more than 15%…

  66. joeltopian says:

    Hey frostheim, Thanks for this AMAZING guide! I play a lvl 85 MM hunter, and I mainly PvP.I love the MM playstyle, and I really dont want to switch to BM, as much as its been buffed. You talked about Marks being nerfed in pve, I was wondering if its been nerfed in Pvp aswell.

    Thank you, And keep up the good work.

    • Calthaliss says:

      Can’t speak for Frost, but, honestly, unless the damage reduction to MM is hugely significant (and it may well be, at least at first), your PVP partners be it in RBG or Arena will likely stick by you and your choice of spec as liong as you know what you’re doing and do it well.

  67. Leanndra says:

    Frost, I didnt pick up on anything about the purchase point system being changed. Are we still gonna use Conquest for PvP and Valor for PvE?

  68. Kristenn says:

    I’m curious if, and why, you think marksmanship will be that much worse in pvp as well.

    Is it really that marksmanship got worse at pvp, or did the others just get better at it because they share talents and can pick up things like silencing shot now? And is Aspect of the Iron Hawk really bad for PvP? I get that in Arena it probably is the wrong choice, but it seems like it could be a good bit better than fox in many battleground situations (which may not be the most serious pvp situations, but tends to present the most frequent ones imo).

    I don’t mind trying BM, but don’t really want to use that in PvP. And survival doesn’t seem very fun to me for either.

    • Frostheim says:

      There are certainly plenty of times in bgs that you can just sit there unloading; however, you’re usually not taking damage during those times. How often are you actually taking damage and just standing still? Because that is the only situation where Aspect of the Ironhawk is helpful.

  69. Anonymous says:

    Expertise pvp cap is 3%???? Really, I should just stop reading there.

  70. Bigbadhag says:

    really omg

  71. Calthaliss says:

    Huge thanks for all the hard work putting this info together. Now, I don’t have to worry about being stuck in a world o’ WTF trying to sort my way through all this come Tuesday and will just enjoy the patch instead. Can’t wait to PVP with these changes!

  72. Krazen says:

    Heya Frost, excellent read. One thing I think that would be very useful for all of us is clarification about pets. Yes, they can be any talent spec now, but will wolves still have the special ability that makes them the tops? Regardless of if my awesomesauce bear can now be a fancy ferocity, will he still be meant for only tanking?

    Thanks for your time, and a hello to all of my other hunters out there. Much love, and here’s to all of us getting our Realm First: Level 90 Hunter achievements in a month!

    <3
    Krazen

  73. canardo says:

    Nice work Frost, saves me digging through the EJ forums to find all of this ;-)

    Head enchants gone (good !)
    Shoulder enchants still ingame ? Also at level 90 ?

    • Purcy says:

      Shoulder enchants will still exist, however we won’t be grinding reputation to get them, we’ll be paying inscriptionists.

  74. Entheogen says:

    Thanks so much for the info, was stressing so much about loosing stats from staff

  75. Kyllea says:

    Hi there,
    On EJ for SV in Simcraft they are showing Lynx Rush over Murder of Crows…
    Are you recommending Murder because it is better at lvl 85?

    http://www.simulationcraft.org/504/Hunter.html#Hunter_SV_T14H

  76. Gino says:

    What the best pet for MoP for each spec if you know. Thanks!

  77. Tehstool says:

    Hey frost great stuff! For some reason when I reforge on the beta 768 statistics yields me hit/expertise capped at 7.5% hit… Not sure if it’s a tooltip thing where I can’t see that I’m not hit/expertise capped. Would love some input on the subject, thanks!

  78. Tehstool says:

    Also with the pet parrying thing, it will affect raiding in 5.0.4. on ultraxion your pet has to attack from the front.

  79. aatwell says:

    I looked over the changes to the BM rotation in the guide but it didn’t mention how the new abilities mix with the old rotation. Not having played BM since BC I feel kinda lost. Can someone help elaborate on the full rotation, or did I just miss it from above?

    Thanks for the guide and I love the community presence on this site. You all rock!

  80. Dezibel says:

    You rock!

  81. mike says:

    what is some good add ons to have ? im kinda lost on that part i got the basic one .like dbw

  82. Bullderp says:

    Guh. I’ve been MM my entire career as hunter. I was too lazy to switch to SV in Tier 13, and found that I was still comparable to SV even then. I have BM as a secondary but (again) have never used it. Looks like I may actually have to learn something new! :O

    As a side question, is it Blizzard’s intention that specs get thrown around so wildly like this, or is it an unintended consequence of their revamps?

  83. Dramatic says:

    Hey guys, Just to clarify!!!!!! What is the best (most DPS) PVP spec for hunters now. MM? SV? BM? i have been MM my entire Hunter career.

  84. Wargnfreeman says:

    Thank you for your time and effort. Very much appreciated.

    Warg

  85. matt says:

    I think its frustrating at least to myself that i constantly have to keep changing my specs to be a good hunter. I was freken amazing with my MM hunter I really hope they dont nerf us so bad at pvp that hunters are pathetic in arenas

  86. Eyegor says:

    As of today (8/28/2012) Glyph of Stampede is still a Druid glyph

  87. Tras says:

    K what am I missing? 396 SV Hunter here. The day before 5.0.4 drops, I have 33% haste (cos that’s how I roll) and a 1.51s cobra cast time. Log in post patch and my haste has dropped to under 17% BEFORE I’ve even reforged to the Exp cap. Just gone thru the reforging process and my haste stands at 12.39% and my cobra cast time is 1.78s. It feels like a lifetime’s difference :(

    • Stalkings says:

      2 things:

      1- you lost the stats on your melee weapon(s)

      2- hunting party went away. Pick up a hyena or serpent in case you have no source of melee haste, it is looking to be the best pet buff available for most specs.

  88. Lisa says:

    THANK YOU SO MUCH! you rock! *hug*

  89. sara says:

    Hey frost! Just tried the BM spec on boss target dummy. I’m capped in expertise and hit at 7.5%. However, my shots are dodged at 10% for auto shot and 7.4% for arcane shot. Any thoughts? I thought the cap meant you couldn’t be dodged!

  90. Aislin says:

    Multi-shot no longer apply serpent sting? Yesterday as a level 75 Hunter, dropping trap and multi-shot was amazing, doing ~2k-6k depending on how many mobs. Now I’m doing like 1.4k spamming Multi-shot on 3+ mobs.

    • Aislin says:

      Nevermind, I just noticed its a survival thing only. does this mean that surv is going to have much better AoE, or am I missing something as BM?

  91. Hirogen says:

    I am 7.55 hit and 7.56 exp capped, yet I am being dodged and missed on the training dummies anywhere from 9-22%. Even kill commands are getting dodged. It is so bad that I can miss a serpent sting refresh because cobra misses!!!!

    I horribly miss MM. Why do they even bother having it if they keep making it into complete crap. The tooltip even reads it as the best ranged dps for hunters, but yet they make the MM a baddie and while we are at it lets give dwarves a gun specialization, but then give them no guns!

    Well crap I see my dodge and miss question was answered above. Whew!, still miss MM!

  92. Stalkings says:

    Pretty nice guide, but one note: Swapping aspects does not cost you 100 percent of your damage while you are waiting for the gcd, and even if it did, you would only aspect swap for focus once your signature shot is on CD, meaning every time you swap you lose the equivalent of only about 1.5 cobra/steady shots, which on a 30k hunter amounts to about 15k damage.

    @Hirogen: It is important to note that the dummies are now level 93, meaning you need alot more to cap vs them, luckily that’s a rather moot point. Frostheim already mentioned this, but for this is for those who just jump to the bottom.

    @Aislen: Beast Cleave as BM. Multishotting makes your pet’s attacks aoe for 4 seconds.

  93. Blazeant says:

    Raided with the new 5.0.4 talent set tonight and noticed some interesting and frustrating situations.

    When playing BM, there were a few encounters I had the inability to use Kill Command. Specifically, on Ultraxion and on Madness of Deathwing for the two inner Tentacles I was unable to use KC or the Mutated Corruptions on any platform. During the final phase, KC also didn’t work on Deathwing’s head.

    It seems like the pet is trying to get behind the target to get a to cast Kill Command, however, it is normally impossible to DPS those targets from behind.

    Also, on Madness, it seems to follow you when you jump now… but most of the time falls though the water until you land, then has to “run up’ to you again, wasting seconds of dps time.

    Needless to say, it was exceedingly frustrating being BM and not able to cast the highest DPS ability. Hopefully Blizzard can address this issue quickly. Anyone else have the same issue?

    • Feymist says:

      I saw the same. No KC on Ultraxxion. we’re doing heroic and haven’t gotten spine yet so I didn’t see the madness problem. Had to swap to SV for Ultraxxion.

    • Aidenkai says:

      Everyone playing BM is having the same issues. Frost even mentions it somewhere in his initial post. For now its SV for those bosses, which I must say, is severely lacking DPS, even from before the patch. I hope they fix it as well. Its hard going from #1 DPS the whole raid and then to come in 10k less dps and last on dps for those fights.

  94. Kapina says:

    Lovely guide, thank you for it. :)

    I have noticed few frustrating bugs since the patch hit and would like to know if others are having them aswell. However I’m only concerned about 1 of them, and that’s Spirit bond. Am I the only one who doesn’t get the Spirit Bond buff during combat? I have pet right next to me and I get no heals at all. In fact I can’t even see the buff when I’m in combat, only when I’m idling in ah or bank I can see the buff is on me but otherwise no.

    Also If you people are testing your dps with new spec, only try it on level 85 training dummy, NOT the boss training dummy, since boss dummy is for level 90 toons. :)

  95. Oraelia says:

    Fantastic guide, as always!

    I opted for Glyph of Fetch over Glyph of Fireworks. There’s something really awesome about aoe looting combined with your pet looting for you. Especially with this handy macro that does the targeting for you:

    /targetlasttarget
    /cast Fetch

  96. Kazreal says:

    Hey guys! I was just wondering, have any of you noticed bugs happening in DS? In BM spec, I can’t seem to cast Kill Command on enemies off-platform such as Ultraxion or the Mutated Corruption. :/

  97. Khavii says:

    Hey Frost,

    I love your site and your guides — always top notch.

    However, I just tried firing my lock and load explosive shots one after the other and they still clip… so it looks like the old rotation is still needed.

  98. Kohai says:

    With all of the changes, what is the best overall DPS pet for a BM hunter? Is the wolf Crit bonus still top?

  99. largone says:

    so i need to reforge all my mastery into expertise?

  100. Fromafar says:

    Does anyone know if Blizz is planning on letting us enchant our new 2h main hand weapons with regular enchants

  101. Venatra says:

    Murder of crows has two main problems:
    – on anything other than a boss, the mobs will probably be dead before the crows have fully formed, let alone gone through their entire cycle
    - the crows have a nasty habit of attacking other mobs (i.e. those adds way off to the side) once their target has died.

    The second problem also occurs with stampede, but that won’t be a problem until Panda ships and we hit 87.

    Blink strike is nice as an opener for BM hunters, and has the added benefit of turning the mob away from the hunter.

    A final warning – spirit bond is apparently broken, and only works OUT OF COMBAT.

  102. Balard says:

    So.. when reforging.. are we still following the basic..

    SV worst stat is Haste
    Bm worst stat is mastery

    ?? Kinda not sure what to reforge ..

  103. Raynewyn says:

    Frost, I’m scared. With Tenacity Pets having lost health, avoidance, armor and having no self heals thanks to the loss of Silverback, what does the future hold for soloing and extreme soloing? Apart from raiding, this is the main reason I play this class and the game overall.

    • Frostheim says:

      Armor is the big concern — and I’m not yet certain if the tooltip is really correct. But we lost only a little heath and a miniscule amount of avoidance. Pet healing isn’t really a concern: Spriit Bond (once it’s working) is hugely, massively improved yielding better pet healing, plus some sweet hunter healing to boot.

      In fact, the hunter self-healing gains are likely to make more things than ever soloable : )

      • Khavii says:

        Hey I made a comment about explosive shots still clipping.. is that a bug? I’m still kind of using the old rotation at this point (with dire beast and murder of crows thrown in when appropriate).

      • Frostheim says:

        You can spam Explosive Shot now. The new functionality is that it can technically still clip, but the damage of the clipped tick is added into the other ticks.

      • Khavii says:

        Ohh okay. Thanks! I must’ve missed that… :) Great to know!

  104. Heavyassault says:

    URGENT!! Orc Hunter.

    Orcs have a racial passive 1% Hit “Axes, Fist and 2h Axes” That 1% actually shows up in the stats weather or not correct? (From personal experience which I just noticed in game) So if that’s the case Orcs would need 666.554 rating to hit 6.5%. Whether or not this is a mistake or something they will hotfix… not sure…but as of now is this not usable as our ranged expertise?

    • Nag says:

      1% Hit “Axes, Fist and 2h Axes” shouldn’t apply to our new exp rating as we don’t use melee. If it is showing I would hasten to say its a tooltip error or something they will fix.

  105. Gooby says:

    I do more dps (36k instead of 31k on the 85 target dummy) with my sv hunter if I use explosive shot only on lock and load procs and keep spamming arcane shots as my main spell. Though I keep everything else on cooldown (black arrow, dire beast, murder of crows, few cobra shots mainly for keeping up serpent sting with the crazy focus reg).

    Can anyone else confirm this ? Guess this will change with mop when you lose the first tier 13 bonus with the double focus reg.

  106. Aidenkai says:

    Is there an app for this website’s information forums? If not that might be something to look into!

  107. Gobee says:

    I noticed that post patch my cat pet’s Roar of Courage is no longer there. The wolf I have still has the +crit howl and my raptor pet still has Tear Armor. Have you noticed this? I’m wondering if I just encountered a small glitch and I just need to retrain another cat?

    It’s nice to hear a strat regarding Explosive Shot. I loved the SVL rotation that worked around this as your main nuke, seeing its damage go down so much, post patch, was a little depressing. However, it’s still useful to get the dps up, but having a method to use it effectively is nice.

  108. Perky says:

    Might be worth noting that some pet special abilities have changed – cats, for example no longer have the Agi/Str buff, but now have a Mastery buff.

    Also, imagine you are BM/SV and have an exotic in your pocket for when you are BM – how will stampede work in SV? Will you get a total FUBAR and none come out or will the exotic only stay behind? I know this can easily be solved by glyphing it, but I thought it was worth a mention.

    Many thanks for the work and info :)

  109. Koloff says:

    Could you possibly show what shot rotation you are using, including using dire beast, etc….thank you for the awesome post. For a Hunter who just returned after 8 months this is extremely helpful…..

    Koloff

  110. Ayripht says:

    I leveled BM, but switched to MM after hitting lvl 80. I haven’t been back to BM until now. My gear isn’t so good (working on that) so my dps right now is only topping at 12,770. I have been out of the game for 5 months, so I’m not sure how bad that is exactly but I know it needs improvement. If anyone has a set rotation they go on, I’d love some extra input.

    Also, am I getting this right……..? Cap Hit & Expertise first, then focus on Agility, Crit, then Haste? Is this the way it still works?

  111. Génesis says:

    I’m having such a hard time adjusting to BM, I leveled as survival then switched to MM for my entire cata experNow that I’m trying out BM I’m 100% sure I have the rotation down and I have reforged and everything so I can hit the caps for hit/exp but I am definitely not seeing the dps that i put out in either surv or mm. hitting about 12k on dummies in BM but in either MM or Surv i put out around 20k… I can’t figure what is wrong here.. My toon is Génesis on Doomhammer US server if anyone can take a look and see if something, at least gear/spec wise, is wrong. As it stands I am still favoring surv or even MM

  112. Killanator says:

    I usually don’t like to voice my opinion on hunter changes because they are so small and i can get use to them but the changes they did to BM in pvp is just annoying, Glad BM is finally in the spotlight but back before the recent patch i could beat any hunter spec as SV but yesterday i finally started to put pvp to the test in TB(Tol Barad), went against a BM hunter in a 1on1 fight and he destroyed me within seconds with the amount of burst he had, he was using a spirit beast and after the fight i checked his gear on main wow website which is what i do if someone does defeat me he had most recent pvp gear same enchants, reforges aswell and talents were what u would u expect a BM hunter to pick in pvp tbh they buffed BM to much to the point of where if i meet one i will have to avoid them, and this is a bit off the topic but have they increased the damage of all dots of other classes because i am receiving alot of damage from them

  113. Vegor says:

    Yes, Blink strike is definitely the choice for BM hunter. Also, with Readiness BM should consider sticking with Fervor instead of Dire Beast. You can get some major DPS dumps into longer fights with this combination. Also, it allows for greater AoE to Single target flexibility when running dungeons.

    • Frostheim says:

      Mmmm… Fervor is good at level 90, but with Wyrmstalker at 85 you can’t actually take full advantage of all the extra focus. Blink Strike isn’t bad, but it’s rough losing all the GCDs, which makes Lynx Rush a bit more attractive at level 85.

  114. Remadon says:

    Glyph of Marked for Death should ___never___ be used, its useless.
    Use a macro for it instead at the opener of every fight…

    /petattack
    /cast Hunter’s Mark

    /petattack can be replaced with whatever you want as long as it doesn’t trigger the GCD.

    Personally this glyph just lets people be lazy. Use the spot for something more important. :P

  115. Dmiri says:

    What? Multi Shot no longer applies serpent sting?!?!?!

  116. Chris says:

    Just a quick observation…i have been rocking Survival for a while now since it was clearly the top DPS spec in 4.3, but you say BM is suppose to be the top DPS spec for 5.0! But with a lot of testing on the target dummy outside SW i maintain about 2 to 3k more DPS with survival than with BM? I have tested it pretty thoroughly and even though BM is more consistent than survival at the moment it seems like….i can still hold a higher DPS with survival….pulling about a steady 25 to 26k as BM and anywhere from 27 to 30k as survival?

  117. Kelsey says:

    So then what is the BM rotation? I see that Aimed Shot and Chimera shot are no longer available in BM, and I was sooo used to using them in my rotation for raiding. What would you suggest as a good rotation? I’ve read through all the comments and couldn’t find an answer.

  118. Wirhl says:

    Quick question frost.

    For Single target, does linx rush then do 9 attacks @ 200% in 4 sec to that 1 target? next question, How does that compare to 3 uses of Blink Strike over the same’ish amount of time?

    I’m guessing I’ll be carrying around a stack of dust to switch between these two for trash and bosses.

    Also, with Linx attack a CC’d mob?

    1 more… :) … How do you feel about macro’ing Bestial Wrath to Blink Strike or Kill Command?

    Thanks Frost for all you do. :)

    • Wirhl says:

      My Bad…it would actually be 4 uses of Blink Strike over the same’ish amount of time.

    • Frostheim says:

      Yup, if there’s only one target Lynx Rush will attack that target 9 times. Blink Strike does more damage; however, it also uses up more global cooldowns, reducing the number of shots you can fire. Both abilities are close in damage, but Lynx Rush looks better right now.

      It’s also awesome for AoE.

      • Hobb says:

        also curious to know if Lynx Rush will attack cc’d targets…I havent had time to test it and havent found anything to confirm either way through the forums.

  119. Kart says:

    Hey Frost,

    On EJ Sehera made a passing comment on an SV rotation with TotH, spamming arcane Shot and only using ES on L&L procs.

    http://beta.femaledwarf.com/hunter_t13h_talents.html

    It turns out this solution is virtually identical in DPS to the more complicated solution with ES on cooldown and Dire beast etc..

    This is of course only relevant for lvl 85, but seing as this guide is exactly that – a guide for lvl 85 I find it highly relevant. Maybe relevant enough for you to make a comment about it in the guide?

    I have stuck with Sv throughout Cata simply because I loved the flow of the spec. with patch 5.04 I was saddened to not have the same feel of flow. The spamming arcanes solution is actually the closest thing to a flow I have tried post patch. In terms of execution in a real raid environment spamming arcanes is certain to be better dps for mediocre hunters like me.

    • Frostheim says:

      I am not seeing that in my testing — I’m seeing that ES rotation is better than arcane even at level 85, though not by a whole lot.

      • Kart says:

        I’ll leave the finer details up to the likes of you and Zehera. I’m simply thrilled to have an alternative to managing more cooldowns and struggling to bleed off insane amounts of focus.

        Btw. Thanks for an awesome site and your tireless work.

  120. Fellari says:

    ehmmm how many attacks did your beast made while the dire beast calls? i think it was 6-7? time for some maths
    7×5=35 even if it is 9 (noway it can be 9) 9×5=45
    Favor gives instand 50 focus and 50 focus over time (inside 10 seconds)
    Dire beast gives all it’s focus onto 15 seconds. some more maths
    Dire Beast= 45 inside 15 seconds (30 seconds cd)
    Favor =50 instand and 50 over time inside 10 seconds (30 seconds cd)
    Even favor is not that good as Thrill of the Hunt only one thing i wanna say, 17 arcane shots in a row (as bm = 20 focus more) without use any attacks form pet (pet gives focus back to hunter as bm) that makes me sure that Thrill of the Hunt is the top and dire beast is the worst.
    About lynx Rush it’s really good for burst but as the time passes Blink strike becoming better, maths again
    9 attacks 200% each attack normal dmg (cd 1.50seconds)
    1 attack 600% normal dmg (cd 20 seconds)
    5 attacks 600% each attack (for the 1.40 seconds)
    that means you have more dmg with blink strike if you fighting large fights, Lynx rush is better if you need Burst,
    About A murder of crows, is obivous that is the best if you use it on a target below 20% but until you reach that Hp is the weakest
    Now it’s up to you, use which skill you want or you liked.

    • Frostheim says:

      It’s not actually that simple: you’re also using a global cooldown every time you use one of the abilities. So in addition to the damage each ability does, you need to take into account the damage you’re not doing by not firing a shot.

      For example: Blink Strike does more damage than Lynx Rush, but it burns 4.5 global cooldowns in the time that Lynx Rush uses only one.

      • Fellari says:

        about your example,
        Blink Strike can be used 5 times inside Lynx Rush’s cd
        that means you have 5 attacks with 600% normal Dmg
        and you prefer 9 attacks with 200% normal Dmg?

        Blink strike does nearly double dmg than Lynx Rush but it does it as the time passes, as i said you should use that Lynx rush if you need burst for some reason otherwish Blink strike is your friend, about the global cd
        the dmg that blink Strike does Exceed the global cd needs

      • Frostheim says:

        Well, 4.5 times — which is 4.5 GCDs for a marginal amount more damage. You lose more damage by not firing a shot all those times than you gain.

  121. Valkaria says:

    Thank you so much for this. Coming from a BM hunter that put the game down for 6 months, came back finding a world of change and confusion, instinctively came here for the answers. You guys never let me down ^.~

  122. Fellari says:

    when lynx rush says it has 1.5 minutes cd THAT MEANS 1. minute and 50 seconds that makes 5 blink strikes and a half , and yes i would like to lose 5.5 gcd to use blink strike, it dmg about 60k crit ( full normal dps gear) and around 30k normal, there are many attacks doing that much dmg? (talking about hunters) btw you didn’t comment about dire beast and thrill of the hunt, i’m w8ing

    • Frostheim says:

      Incorrect: 1.5 minutes is 1 and a half minutes, or 90 seconds; when you calculate the damage gain of the new abilities, you have to calculate the total dps change: blink strike does more damage, but reduces the hunter shot damage by more, so the total dps gain is actually slightly smaller with blink strike.

      Thrill of the Hunt, by the way, actual sims out to be the worst — keep in mind that Dire Beast is doing damage as well as giving you focus: the net benefit of the ability isn’t just the focus (which we don’t really need at level 85 anyway — the reason Fervor doesn’t win for BM).

  123. Fellari says:

    ehmmm no sorry, when it’s says 1.5 minutes it means 1 minute and 50 seconds = 110 seconds cd i already used it now with omniCC and it started counting from 110 sec and i’m 100% sure about what i’m saying now
    Crows are the best if the target is below 20% but i don’t know any boss starting less than 20% hp (exept Vaelastrasz) that makes blink strike the king of it’s line

    The dmg by Dire beast is around 100-200 (max on dammy) (i know the dmg on dammy is low but it scales on raids, it can’t be 200 on dammy and 10.000 on raid it propably goes around 1.200-2.000 nothing more than this) and the attacks are 6-9(max) = you are talkin back 30-45 focus if the trills of the hunt procs* only once it gives you 3 arcane shots = 60 focus and think, i’m talking only about 1 proc, try to think what will happens if it procs 30% of all your skills , that makes it the Best talent on it’s line

    • Frostheim says:

      I just hopped in game and double-checked the cooldown manually, and it is indeed 90 seconds.

      A Murder of Crows does the same damage regardless of when you use it — the cooldown just gets shorter below 20% health (to 1 minute: which means in most fights you won’t get to use it again anyway). Thus your goal is to use A Murder of Crows as soon as possible, so that you can use it as often as possible. In most average fights you should get 3 uses out of it.

      Um… if you want to contradict theorycrafting on Thrill of the Hunt, you will need to show some math.

  124. Fellari says:

    ”Crows are the best if the target is below 20%” i said it cause i imagined that if the target will be always below 20% hp and the crows will have always 1 minute cd then it gonna be the best skill of all three,(my english are not the best, but i think you can understand what i wanna say) and i wanna accept you are right about the time of lynx rush cd i don’t know what was wrong about my omniCC but i have to apologise,i did it manualy and you were right. Even with 1.30 sec cd it’s 4.5 use of Blink strike, as the time passes blink strike becaming better and better,
    for example: inside 3 minutes you gonna have 2 uses by lynx rush
    and i’m gonna have 9 uses by blink strike
    18 attacks 200% normal dmg each or 9 attacks 600% normal dmg each?

    (i’m now at beta i have no time on my normal account so i’m useing beta char 4mounth behind on gear)
    each attack from Lynx Rush (normal is 4.700 Crit 9.300)x18=112.200k
    each attack from Blink Strike (normal is 15.500. Crit 32.000)x9=189.000k
    (with 30% crit chance)

    About Thrill of the Hunt, all of your skills have 30% chance to proc 3 free arcane shots or 50% lower cost multi-shots in that case it saves you 60 focus each time it’s proc. It has no cd that means you keep shooting* arcane shot. i’ve stay on dammy and i made 17 arcane shots in a row(using only arcane shots) it can be more times if you are lucky. i think it’s about 14-20+ it’s up to how much lucky you are, and the free arcane shot it’s around to 6-12 x20 focus … i think you can calculate it,(tbh i think it gonna be nerfed soon)

  125. Shaun says:

    Is it me or are hunters one of the only classes that don’t have any glyphs that increase dps?

  126. Jeff says:

    Pet buffs have changed…with the strength buff from cats and the crit buff from wolfs being more common now that mages give a 5% crit buff to the party it’s worth noting that spirit beasts may be worth paying attention to since they give a mastery bonus to the party.

  127. Hegh says:

    If it hasn’t been said already Thrill of The Hunt should be taken as bm the number of arcane shots you pump out is rediculous proccing cobra strikes more than ever imo.

  128. John says:

    Anyone else think the Tier 14 set bonuses are pretty weak?

  129. Grilor says:

    Didnt’t MM Hunters have Kill Command? I was resetting up my bars and i see KC is in my BM buttons but there is no KC in MM. Was it removed and only Given to BM/SV?

    • Pengalor says:

      It’s BM only now. Not really sure why that was necessary, but I know it’s going to make duoing Souls in Black Temple much harder : /

  130. Traisera says:

    I have noticed that they nerfed Multi shot damage and Explosive shot…. How ever Survival spec used to be stronger Pre nerf.

  131. Hodorr says:

    My problem is this: After following all the respeccing/reforging suggestions my arcane shot, which I never touched before as surv, does way more dmg than my exp. shots. My exp. shot dmg is currently laughable and I find myself not even wasting energy on it unless it procs. Is this the new norm for sv hunters? If so I seriously have to retrain myself on a new rotation strategy.

  132. Greatmelinko says:

    What as Bm should our stat priority be? I have looked at other sites and they say agil-hit-expertise-crit-haste then mastery, But as Bm since our main damage comes from our pets would Mastery not be after hit and expertise?

    Also on the Aspects they changed it again it no longer shares a global Cd with your spells but has their own seperate cd of 1 second. Now i have run into a problem could be my internet or maybe not when i use my macro to switch to hawk from fox with arcane shot it seems to be lowering my dps some. Which i had to just put Hawk on Serpent sting and and fox on Cobra and left it off of Arcane shot. Any one else having this problem or is just me and my internet lol. Btw Great site have been using it since i created my hunter back in mid wrath.

  133. Judge says:

    Thanks so much for all the work you do. I’m coming back to MoP after a bit of a break, and it’s like a starting over again. All this info will help immensely! Thanks again

  134. Pengalor says:

    Holy crapa, been busy with other things but finally hopped on my hunter today and jeeeez, you weren’t kidding about the amount of focus we have to bleed off. Good to see though after the nightmare that was most of Cata. One thing I didn’t see in the guide, what is to be done with haste problems? Right now I’m in mostly normal mode DS gear and after reforging where I could for expertise and reforging out of hit until I hit the cap I don’t really have any room to be able to reforge into haste. My cobra shot is at around 1.7 seconds, is that a big deal nowadays or does it not matter as much since we have a ton of focus now anyways?

    • Frostheim says:

      Well, it’s only an issue for another 4 days, but yes, you end up losing haste to hit expertise and there’s nothing you can do about that. But overall dps should still be good.

      • Pengalor says:

        Fair point : P. Yeah, my DPS is still fine, was just so used to the timing of Cobras in between Explosive Shots. Thanks for the answer!

  135. faceshot says:

    will readiness reset the cd on stampede?

  136. Stubakka says:

    Hello all!, So im solo leveling, what are my best bet Glyphs for 5 man, and heroics, not planning on raiding at the moment, Im also main spec survival.

  137. Worftallica says:

    This is really really helpful thanks dude

  138. dampersec says:

    ok im a long time hunter fav is survial and was wondering when u check black arrow and serpent sting its concidered spell damage when u look on your stats spell power it doesnt say not for your toon u can actully put spell damage on your toon . scared to try but wondering if its some kind of hidden serect for extra damage for your shots or WoW forgot to take it away from us???????