Patch 4.2 Updates

Posted: by Frostheim


A couple slight updates from the patch 4.2 world came in over the weekend. First, we got a tad more clarification on our new t12 hunter set:\

  • 2-Piece Bonus: Your Steady Shot and Cobra Shot have a 10% chance to trigger a Flaming Arrow, dealing 80% instant weapon damage as Fire.
  • 4-Piece Bonus: You have a 10% chance from your Auto Shots to make your next shot cost no focus.

The Hunter 4-piece bonus does not get consumed by shots that do not cost focus.

So here’s two new important pieces of information: the 2-piece bonus is indeed 80% instant weapon damage. We can now start to speculate on various DPS scenarios for this set bonus. We still aren’t sure if it’s normalized or not, but we can crunch it in both scenarios.

This is clearly far, far superior to our t11 2-piece.

We also know that the 4-piece bonus does not go away if we fire a Steady or Cobra shot after the proc, which is a bit of a relief, and gives us some more strategic options in using the proc. Of course, we still have no idea how Kill Command is treated for the set bonus, so we still can’t do a whole lot more than guess about the 4-piece bonus.

I also noticed this little gem in the MMO-Champion datamining:

  • Master of Beasts now increases damage done by pets by 13.4%, down from 13.6%. Each point increases pet damage by 1.67%, down from 1.7%.

I really don’t understand this one. First of all, it’s such a tiny adjustment, which makes it odd. Secondly, mastery remains a pretty crummy stat for BM — why does it need to go down at all. The only thing I can possibly think of is this is Blizzard looking ahead at BM’s scaling and deciding it needed some tweaks.

And if indeed this is what they’re doing, that suggests we’re likely to see some MM tweaks in the future of the PTR as well (keeping in mind, they push these things live as they get implemented — so just because we don’t see a MM tweak doesn’t mean it isn’t coming, or isn’t as high a priority — just that this is what got done first).

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  1. Floorpie says:

    Interesting development. I look forward to seeing how the 4-set bonus factors in at different points in the rotations of each respective spec. I forsee plenty of experimentation in my near future on the PTR!

  2. Snorkelpoof says:

    I guess one thing I’m confused about is why when we are comparing the DPS contributions from Tier-11 to Tier-12 and their set bonuses we’re looking at 2-piece vs 2-piece and 4-piece vs 4-piece. During progression and the gearing up process most of us will be looking at trading in out 4-piece bonus for the new two and then the old 2-piece for the new 4. So from a upgrade view point wouldn’t that be the more practical way to compare them.

    • Frostheim says:

      The big question is which set is better — this is mostly a big question because some people have suggested that the t11 is actually net superior (which is silly, because there isn’t nearly enough information to make that assessment).

      Once we can verify that the t12 is better, then we can discuss where the break point is for gear switching — alas because of the nature of t11 4-piece, the answer is going to be “it depends on you” — it will be radically different from character to character depending on their position in the haste plateaus.

      • Snorkelpoof says:

        I understood when it was it was suggested to keep certain 2-piece bonuses into new tier because you were only taking an over all stat loss on two pieces which could easily be made up for from the DPS gain of bonus. I just fail to see how keeping Tier-11 would make keeping a lackluster 2-piece bonus and taking a stat loss on 4 pieces(3 of which are our most stat heavy slots) look more attractive over the new tier even with the haste plateaus taken into account.

  3. Kayko says:

    I really hope the 4pc bonus does not make it live. Mathmatically, the bonus will look great, in reality, the bonus will be used for arcane shots.
    Sure, free arcanes are nice but it is the focus dump shot. A shot that was admitedly designed as a focus bleed now can become free. I can see the bonus resulting in either capping out on focus waiting for a timed big shot losing dps cause your skipping arcanes (but then you are stuck still focused cap after using your big shot ultimatly losing dps, MM will quickly be finding Imp Steady dropping cause of the need to focus bleed) or you just go about your rotation and it does absolutly nothing for you since you’ll be ignoring the proc all together.

    I do not think for one second that the 4pc will be any form of dps increase to anyone unless Kill Command is included and at that point, they just need to change it to “chance at a free kill command” since all specs will use it that way.

    • faignz says:

      I’d like to know where you got your math!

      How do you expect to be constantly focus capped with a proc that happens (on average) once every 10 auto-shots.

    • shardavarius says:

      You seem to have slightly misplaced priorities. Having a full focus bar isn’t, by itself, a DPS loss. Right now it results in lower DPS because it is a symptom of ineffiecient use of focus – there is a higher DPS rotation available to you. It is possible to imagine a scenario, though, were you might leave your focus capped for a short time to fire more shots. If the free shot proc somehow results in a situation where you are firing free shots so much you lose 5-10 focus regen to the cap every now and then, who cares? Optimal focus efficiency is a tool for DPS not an end in itself.

    • Jimli says:

      We aren’t going to have max focus ever. This isn’t exact science but say you have just made your signature shot. You have only so long to regen enough focus to fire your next signature shot. I play MM so for me I usually get in two/three arcane and four steady shots at my current (low) gear level. Well if your getting several free procs from 4pc bonus then you start reducing steady shots and adding arcance Shots. So you are loosing the focus regen from steady but gaining the free shots from 4pc bonus.

      The reality of the four piece bonus will probably be the decision to add another arcance shot so my rotation looks like 3/4 arcane shots and 4 steady shots. This without enough haste might make you push your signature shot back by a second. So then the choice becomes do I push back my Signature shot for the a free arcane shot or do I pool focus. Even if you pool focus I think what is going to happen is a small dps increase at the cost of a fairly normalized “rotation”. Except for Free Aim shots when we have the chance to stand still and fire away we have a fairly formulaic rotation. I think this will make the rotation more varied with the chance for higher dps depending on the RNG and timing of the procs.

      I think practically it will shorten the gap between the hard and soft haste plateau’s depending on the skill of the hunter.

  4. Omogon says:

    so ..if you have the 2 pc bonus AND Flintlocke’s woodchucker on your weapon, you might launch a flaming arrow AND a rabid critter at the same time ;)

  5. Femaledwarf says:

    I’ll see what I can do about getting some simulated support for the new bonuses on my site soon now that we have some more information on them.

    With regards to the BM data, I’m thinking either they plan to make some other changes to BM that would go with that tweak, or that this is a clarification of existing values. I recall when we were first testing the BM mastery that we were actually getting values that looked to be a bit below 1.7% per point. So it’s possible what they were displaying was incorrect and they’re clarifying the value (rather than changing it), although it’s been awhile since I retested BM mastery, so I don’t remember the details of the matter.

    Also, I did some brief testing on PTR and it definitely looks like they’ve improved the initial damage from explosive trap to scale far better than it used to. I haven’t spent enough time on it yet to come up with new formulas or check some of the other traps, but that is one change in 4.2 for sure.

  6. BMHunter says:

    I disagree with Mastery being a crammy stat. Let me guess you use your Beast Mastery like selecive shots without having no macros and your dps shows crit rate > mastery. Change your class to Orc. Bring the Mastry to 15% + and since Spirit Beast does a fair bit of healing change some of your pvp gears with pve for more damage. If your pvp gear is giving more than 14k dps on a level 88 dummy on a pvp set on a full Hunter’s mark time duration tell me.

    If not I wil l gladly produce a screen shot / video.

  7. threesixteen says:

    i too disagree with the statement that Mastery is crap for BM… in fact, mastery is awesome for BM. i’m at ~18.5% BM and i’m keeping pace in raids with the top dps’ers in the group. My entire approach is to make Kill Command do as much damage as possible with Arcane Shot being the next in my priorities. I don’t sacrifice Agility or crit, but i definitely reforge out of haste into mastery. Haste just isn’t useful for BMs once you’ve specced into it in the Surv tree; i’m at about 1.66 attack speed when raid buffed, not counting rapid fire or focus fire.

    i’m not sure why this site consistently downgrades the beastmaster spec and mastery in general. I think it does a disservice to all the BM hunters out there who have a real feel for how to play this spec.

    • Frostheim says:

      Mastery is pretty crummy for BM only in that one mastery rating is providing less DPS than 1 crit or haste rating. This is different from saying “mastery is crap for BM.”

      Furthermore, while we’re discussing twisting frostheim’s words “i’m not sure why this site consistently downgrades the beastmaster spec” <-- I disagree with this statement. Please provide some evidence where I downgrade BM (and I think we can agree that factual statements don't count as 'downgrading').

      • BMHunter says:

        Posted response on a seperate post becaause there is another fact that needs to be taken into consideration.

      • threesixteen says:

        for example: you downgraded it when you promoted MM as your choice for best solo spec.

        I think that this site is focused much more on Surv and MM than BM and most of the specs that are suggested for raid builds etc aren’t actually based on experience with the spec, but instead on an “ideal” mathematical modelling which just doesn’t do it justice.

        Just very disappointed generally in the cursory approach is all. I understand you are prolific in the hunter community, and applaud you for that; but i think for practical purposes, BM hunters are better served to either do their own research or find guidance elsewhere.

      • Frostheim says:

        On the other hand, I touted BM as the best leveling and soloing spec for all of Wrath, and the end of BC (when I touted it as the best for everything).

        I play every spec, and run with them extensively when I’m doing testing. I suppose I disagree with the notion that suggesting one spec is better for one area of play is equivalent to denigrating another spec. Often times one is better, and I’m trying to present the best possible choices to hunters here.

    • BMHunter says:

      Any 2400 + BM ORC hunters shed some light on this topic and also post your dps on an 88 dummy ? I think stacking mastery is not a bad option at all – but you must be an orc and you must have 15% + mastery rate.

      • threesixteen says:

        i chose orc and i stack mastery as you mentioned BMHunter. i have great results from it. A smooth rotation; consistent output; and i provide alot more value to our raid than MM or Surv does. I pet tank in Heroic Halfus and on Nef Adds Phase 1. I solo tank Argaloth. I bring the 3% (we have no ret pally); i self heal with spirit beast; i swap to Chromaggus pet for BL when we need. Etc Etc.

        Plus i am often at the top of the dps charts when the fights call for focus dps from me.

        In my opinion, BM brings the greatest utility and overall dps value of all the hunter specs.

  8. BMHunter says:

    Frostheim, is your hunter on an orc ? IF so …

    1) “Mastery is pretty crummy for BM only in that one mastery rating is providing less DPS than 1 crit or haste rating” prove it on recount. My RECOUNT disagrees with you. I want to see what your dps is on 88 dummy on pvp set.

    2) You are not counting the fact that beasts can attack players out of line of sight in arenas which is a HUGE advatage. And also useful if say a rogue if you are finishing off a melee while strifing vs. say a warrior / rogue.

    We will get to the second argument LATER. I want to see your dps first on 88 dummy on your pvp set first. screen shot or video please for comparative results.

    • Mascaron says:

      If my memory is correct, Frost isn’t a particularly savvy pvp hunter, although Tapington is. If you’re unaware Tapington is writing pvp articles for the WHU and do you know what he recommends as the stat priorities for a pvp BM hunter? “BM: Hit (Until you are at the 5% hit cap) Agility > Mastery > Crit > Haste.” That can be fround in his Gearing for PvP and Racials article.

      • BMHunter says:

        Mascaron if that is the case I agree with Tapington IF he indeed wrote “Agility > Mastery > Crit > Haste” – the difference between mastery and crit is close to 1k DPS ONLY ON Orc Hunter. Mastery > Crit in dps. Not only that there is a second fact that I mentioned above that plays in favor of stacking mastery in bm hunters, (attack players out of line of sight).

        I would love to be proved wrong because that way I knnow I can improve my spec.

    • Dmok says:

      I’m fairly certain there’s a disclaimer on here somewhere stating that Frost’s facts are primarily for PvE .. and if they happen to also work for PvP, that’s a bonus.

      In that light, I fail to see how your second argument takes that into account. For point#1, I also fail to see how being in a strict PvP set would be required to determine the benefits of 1 mastery rating over 1 crit rating, or 1 haste rating.

    • faignz says:

      The fact that you’re putting so much emphasis on your race alone should pretty much point out why the stat isn’t the #1 choice for BM in terms of stat stacking or reforging.

      If you need to be an orc and using a cat and the Moon needs to be in alignment with Saturn to make reforging into stamina a DPS increase, does that mean that it isn’t a crummy stat all the other times that the Moon and Saturn aren’t in alignment? Granted this is an extreme example but I think you get the point.

      Having to rely on one race to make a stat NOT be the THIRD best option for stat stacking and instead MAYBE the SECOND best in an environment that this article wasn’t even dealing with (PvP) seems like a really bad place to start an argument.

      Also relying on Recount for your numbers and not a combat log parsing program outside of the game is pretty lol-tastic.

      • Frostheim says:

        All my weighting is based around PvE. Talk to Tapp about PvP stuff : )

        I’m curious how you claim a 1k dps difference on an orc reforging into mastery instead of crit. Do you have any math you can show? Or a link to a spreadsheet with your examples?

        The orc racial shouldn’t scale funny — the benefit should be the same at all mastery levels. As we know from past articles, the interaction of crit and mastery changes in favor of mastery only when you have exceptionally high crit levels (we’ll see if we can get those in T12 or not) — but I don’t really see how a base 5% pet damage boost would affect the weighting at certain levels of mastery, and not at others.

        Would love to see some data.

    • Kaeleb says:

      The discussion is referring to the relative value of stats for PvE. I’m not sure why you’re bringing PvP considerations into it.

  9. BMHunter says:

    I am guessing you use some dll injection on your wow executable to get the perfect damage done to the nearest nano second to calculate your PERFECT dps. And since, whatever you say MUST be TRUE – since recount is an absolute garbage tool to calculate dps (FLIPS) – don’t trust those third party programs DUDE. Oh the irony.

    So let me know when and how you figure out how to prove crit rate > mastery and on your awesome hunter which surpasses the 2700 arena rating mark. LOL.

    • Frostheim says:

      Hop over to the FAQ and read the commenting policies, please.

      There are numerous articles here on how to get the highest boss-dps advantage out of your hunter, as well as the articles explaining the crit vs. mastery comparisons — and articles explaining haste and the haste plateaus.

      I’m happy to explore new data, but please understand how someone coming in and saying “no that’s not right it’s awesome if you do it differently” isn’t helping the discussion. If you have any math, or anyone else’s math, or even strong logic to use as a starting point, please share it.

      Unfortunately without data, you aren’t making any kind of compelling argument. You’re just disagreeing.

      Disagreeing is fine, but alone it’s not going to convince anyone of anything.

  10. BMHunter says:

    \All my weighting is based around PvE. Talk to Tapp about PvP stuff :) … Do you have any math you can show? Or a link to a spreadsheet with your examples?\ Yessir. Still at my office crunching paper and abusing my time with your beautiful site :). Will show some dps results once I get home. The results will be on recount video. I will also give a 1v1 video of me pvping a few 2k+ players in arena in which I went 6-0 in front of ogr. My actions have improved significanlty since then but it will still give a few examples. One major video while pvping is I changed my backpedalling to strifing. Many will say 1v1 is insignificant , my point is simply mastery carries the dps.

    2 videos : 1 on 88 dummy , 1 on pvp play. Perhaps one of your stronger players like tap can mimic and produce better results.

    • Frostheim says:

      Don’t worry about the pvp video — that’s irrelevant to theoretical dps optimization for PvE (which is what we discuss here – except in Tapp’s pvp articles).

      For the dummy tests, you generally need a series of 5-minute tests with each setup. Give us a couple for the mastery route, and a couple for the accepted reforging. Make sure no one else is attacking the dummy with debuffs, obviously.

      If indeed the difference is a whopping 1k dps, we should be able to see it in just a couple of tests of each method — it should be easy to be beyond the margin of error : )

      • faignz says:

        “since recount is an absolute garbage tool to calculate dps (FLIPS) – don’t trust those third party programs DUDE. Oh the irony. ”

        The irony is that you are trusting a third party tool. Recount isn’t a mod that Blizzard created so, herp-de-derp, your statement of saying my statement is ironic is ACTUALLY the ironic statement. *mind boggling*

        Recount is a bad tool because it doesn’t handle the start and end of combat well, not because it doesn’t add correctly. When you export your combat log into a parsing too it will get the timing of combat correct down to the nanosecond because it’s programmed to do that.

        Building on what Frostheim is saying, you can run your 5 min sims on the lvl 88 dummy and get us some data. You could even run the sims on femaledwarf.com if you want.

        Until you do that, it’s really all just speculation.

  11. Oricc says:

    I don’t want to get in the middle of this disagreement but I just wanted to present my logic for crit > mastery in an ideal situation. As far as I understand 1% crit = 1% damage, for example, let’s say you and your pet do 400 damage in 4 seconds with 1 ability each second as is the GCD. Then if you add 25% crit rating, theoretically you do 100 damage each second for 3 seconds and 200 damage one second because your abilities crit resulting in 500 damage which you will note is 25% more than 400 damage.

    The way mastery works is as a 1.7% DPS increase to your pets damaging attacks (including KC). In my BM specc with full heroic raiding gear, my single target pet averages 40% of my overall damage on a boss (this may be different from person to person, however, since I first started playing BM this has varied only very slightly from boss to boss). So taking that as a starting point, I again do 400 damage with my pet accounting for 40% of that damage. If I then add 25 mastery rating (as I did before with crit) 40% of that initial 400 damage is increased by 25*1.7% which yields a total end result of 468 damage, which is only a 17% increase in damage compared to crits full 25% increase.

    So here is a mathematical example of how the same itemization value for mastery, theoretically results in less overall damage than crit. Now crit and mastery do have synergy however as frost pointed out that only comes in to play at higher levels of crit than are currently available to us.

    Furthermore, and this may sound silly, but crits proc stuff! Specifically as BM (and this is again in a PvE specc) our crits proc Sic ’em, Go for the Throat, Killing Streak, and Invigoration, which is nothing scoff at.

    It is of course possible that in PvP crits can be unreliable in shorter fights, or perhaps a higher percentage of your damage comes from your pet in PvP which could certainly swing the favor in the direction of mastery, however from a purely theoretical perspective, I think it is hard to deny that crit does come out on-top when you do the math. When it comes to haste it gets quite complicated and I’m not sure what to say about that one, but what I have heard is that haste and mastery are pretty much a wash in both BM and SV, however I have zero math to back this up, just hear-say.

    If anything I’ve said is completely off the wall and dead wrong then please tell me, however I think I have done the math correctly. Hope this helps.

  12. Kayko says:

    Apparently my original comment may have not been clear. (and this might not be any better)

    I am not comparing T11 to T12, what I am looking at is T12 vs equal ilvl non tier.

    I do believe that on paper, the T12 4pc set will come out to a DPS gain but have nothing to back it up since I have not done any actual hand written math. I am looking at how the ability is written to work vs expected actual usage in PvE.

    Shardavariu, I do understand the priorities and how sometimes being focus capped is not terribly a bad thing, but you are justifying one of the major concerns I have about the bonus.
    I see no situation were the bonus will affect the any specs priorities. Regardless of 4pc or not, BM will Kill Command every 6 seconds, MM will Chimera every 9-10 (depending on glyph) and Surv will ES every 6 seconds. 50 focus or 100 focus, this does not change.
    (for MM) At this point, I do not suspect haste ratings (in non heroic at least) being able to reach the 3K+ range in order to hit that 2nd hard plateau. Most will be doing the 4 steady/2 arcane/chimera rotation. (The T11 4pc turned out to be too strong of a bonus, but with Agi being so valuable, the gains from T12 ilvl items will outweigh the t11 bonus)
    Now, (with optimal haste) if you get a proc on your Chimera, you could use a Kill Command to bleed that focus but now you have used 50 focus in that one second, vs 2 seconds, resulting in:
    a) waiting that one second for the Chimera CD
    b) if chimera not glyphed in option A, glyphing Chimera and more often pushing it back 1 second since your much more likely to not get the proc for use of Chimera.
    c) use an additional Arcane at the cost of 75 focus in 2 seconds and have a very negative regen rate most likely resulting in having to cast another Steady to have enough focus to cast Chimera.
    d) *the most likely scenario* ignoring the proc all together and going about the 4 steady/2 arcane/1 chimera rotation.
    e) I guess you could sit and just steady shot your way till Chimera comes off CD but then you are just pushing Chimera back 1/2-1 second cause of the cast time of steady vs the global of Arcane.
    With “D” being the most likely situation from my view, there is no benefit to having the 4pc tier vs equal ilvl non tier. I suspect that if the bonus stays the same, the priority will still remain the same thus gaining no use from the free shots. If your not gaining any extra shots from the proc, your dps will not be affected.

    I’ve managed to confuse myself now, but maybe someone understands my concerns can simplify the point I am trying to make. Maybe its the way to “nerf” MM down to were BM and Surv will be in the equivalent iLvl.

    • Nerec says:

      some more information for the ICD of the 4 pc would help very much..some on ptr here?

      chim 44 focus & 2x arcane(22 focus) 44 focus. so you need 88 focus to cast these three shots off. Though ISS has 8 sec uptime it is easy pouring these shots out before ISS went up:
      0.0 chim 88->46
      1.5 arc 44->22
      3.0 arc 22->00
      4.5 steady 00->13
      6.0 2nd steady 13->26
      7.5 3rd steady 26->39
      9.0 4th steady 39->52
      + 4 focus x 9 sec = 88 focus [which means focus neutral rotation]
      cast 4 steady in a row and have the longest possible time to get the t12 4pc proc (4 x 1.5 sec = 6 sek). till this it is easy, now it will become complicated.

      everybody have to shuffle the overflowing 44 focus from the next chim if the proc occur. so it will become an decision making on the flow of your rotation. everybode have to watch the focus, the cd of chim and the ISS. I think it is possible to switch between standard 4 steady / 2 arc / 1 chim and something like 6 steady / 6 arc / 2 chim in 18 sec to come focusneutral.

  13. BMHunter says:

    Not going to give screen shots but I tested 6 results, 3 each because there will be a follow up on armory but the mean distribution for Mastery is giving me around 0.5k dps not 1k dps which I said earlier. But for those with a big mouth, my gear gives me 14k+ dps on pvp gear. Test yourself and find out.

    Oricc your logic is faulty by too many “mathematical” concepts. Here is why,

    1) You can send a pet to attack a target without line of site .
    2) If you play with orc your dmg will hit the 43 – 44% mark on 15% mastery

    25%, does not mean your mean distribution will be 25%. Meaning, say a coin has 2 sides, that’s a fair 50/50 chance. But say a dice has 6 sides. You want a six.

    Roll it 12 times. Chances you will get a six, 2 out of 12 times is unlikely. The reality is you will probably get a six 1 out of 12 times. If the crit rate was hitting the 40% roof tops I would say crit is very good. But it’s not the case. I prefer the raw amplifiers out of the pet.

    In English it means your 25% crit rate will feel like 20%. The other thing you should know is when it comes to surpassing pvp gear defense the enemy defense cancels your minor pet damages such as claw / melee. The slightly amplified pet dmg significantly improves your pet dmg because its multiplying with the AP.

    YES, SOME 2200+ BM Hunters claim, they stacked crit over mastery and it gives them more dmg. Here is an example : he is stacking crit

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/malganis/hunters/simple

    Others : stacking mastery

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/executus/yova/simple

    Both are of the same level. But the first one has a weird spec build as well. Anyway, try it yourself – I think what matters at end is whatever you feel comfortable with. But I would advice not getting stuck to one build before you hit the 2200 margin, flip switch around etc, experiment and MOST IMPORTANTLY instead of trying to prove your way is correct fix your EXPERIMENT with your actions and LEARN.

    But the main key is this, BM hunters require extensive macros to micro manage. If you don’t have it then this spec if not for you. A lot of 2200+ mm hunter asked how I get the higher end of damage in 3s. I just said, I enjoy my spec. That’s it.

    • Frostheim says:

      BMHunter — PLEASE READ THIS — because it seems you haven’t been. We are discussing PvE and optimizing dps that way — the largest raw sustained dps output possible on a single target. This is not a pvp discussion — that should go in one of Tappington’s pvp threads.

      To address your probability discussion: if you roll a dice-sided die, you will, on average, get one six every 6 rolls. On average, you’ll get two of them in 12 rolls. The actual probability of rolling a six at least once over the course of 6 rolls is 66.51%. Over the course of 12 rolls the probability of rolling at least one six is 88.78%

      Your 25% crit rate, with no suppression (like from a boss), will sometimes feel like 25%, sometimes like 20%, and sometimes like 30%. It is not true that it’s usually lower than 25%. On average, it’s 25%, and randomness can tweak it up or down by your margin of error (but since it’s a binomial proportional distribution, it’s asymmetrical and your margin of error over is slightly larger than your margin of error under).

    • Oricc says:

      @BM hunter
      *apologies in advance for the walla fo text, SORRY!*

      Let me just quickly say that certain parts of PvP may or may not favor Mastery over Crit. I understand that you can attack out of LoS with your pet I also understand that an orc will receive higher pet damage from their racial bonus, I am also willing to accept that crit is more RNG based and shorter arena or RBG engagements may punish or reward this making mastery more reliable.

      BUT THIS IS NOT THE POINT.

      The idea that my “logic is faulty by too many “mathematical” concepts” is simply absurd. My argument is perfectly valid and it shows that in an ideal situation Crit adds more damage than mastery does.

      I feel you may not have understood what I meant in this regard because you seem to be confused about some of the concepts that you mentioned in your reply. I will try to clear some of these up in a hopes that you can understand my argument better:

      1) You said that as an Orc with a lot of Mastery your pet is doing 43-44% of your damage. While this may be true, if you do the math, the percentage of pet damage you need in order for Mastery to start contributing more than crit is over 50%, and even so, as an increase in mastery will increase the proportion of your damage coming from your pet, I believe you must compare the two percentages separately (ie. 40% of damage from pet with x% crit vs. 44% of damage from pet with y% crit where y<x)

      2) You seem to have misinterpreted some of the concepts of probability. If I have a 25% chance to crit that means, by definition, I will get a crit on average 25% of the time. The idea that this only "will feel like 20%" is incorrect. You can look at frostheim's post where he explains, quite succinctly, why 25% crit means 25% crit in the absence of crit suppression.

      3) You seem to have the idea that Mastery has synergy with Attack Power that crit doesn't. As far as I know this is not the case, as crit scales just as well with attack power as a flat % damage increase, in exactly the same way the two different stats worked before in my previous example.

      4) You mentioned the idea of PvP damage reduction negating smal pet damage. This I find very interesting, however I don't see why mastery would help overcome the damage reduction any better than crit would. Even if 1 mastery = 1% crit, it seems to me like crit would at least break even with mastery in overcoming this problem. Let me give a quick example:

      For simplicity's sake, let's say that 1 mastery = 1% crit =1% DPS (it doesn't, but let's just say it does for the example). I'm a pet and I do 4 attacks for 100 damage each before damage reduction. the Warrior I'm attacking has 50% damage reduction from his PvP gear so instead of doing 400 damage I do 200 damage. Now, if I add 50 mastery I do 4 attacks for 150 damage each, this damage is again reduced by 50% giving me 300 total damage. if I instead has 50% crit I would do 2 attacks for 100 damage and 2 attacks for 200 damage (all before reduction). At 50% damage reduction I would then do a total of 300 damage.

      As you can see the damage done with crit is exactly the same as that done with mastery. I may have missed something here with regards to how damage reduction is calculated, and if so please tell me, but I believe this logic holds if it is calculated in the way assumed above.

      5) You said: "If the crit rate was hitting the 40% roof tops I would say crit is very good"
      I think you missed the point about higher crit ratings (ie. 40%). when we get crit to higher levels (around 60% I believe is the number that frost once gave as the threshold, however I may be wrong) we see Mastery become a more attractive stat that crit rather than crit becoming even better which seems to be what you implied in you statement. This is because of the way crit and mastery work together and can be best explained in an example:

      For simplicity's sake, let's say, again, that 1 mastery = 1% crit =1% DPS (it doesn't, but let's just say it does for the example). I fire 4 shots for 100 damage each, just as before, with zero itemization giving me 400 damage. If I then add 50% crit 2 of my four shots will hit for 200 and 2 will hit for 100, giving me a total of 600 damage. Now if I take 50% mastery instead of 50% crit, none of my shots will crit but every single one will do 50% more damage so I will have 4 shots hitting for 150 damage each which adds up to exactly 600 damage. If instead I decided to split up my itemization, and give myself 25% crit and 25% mastery, I would have 3 shots that do 125 damage each (from the 25% mastery) and 1 shot that does 250 damage (a shot augmented by mastery that then crit). this gives me a total of 625 damage, 25 damage more than I got with the same itemization stacking only one stat. Of course 1 Mastery =/= 1% crit which is why the actual point at which the synergy starts to matter is not when you have equal values of both.

      I hope this clears up some possible missunderstandings and will help you to understand my completely theoretical example a bit better. Again if anything I have said is totally wrong please point it out as I am may well be wrong and would be happy to hear a concise explanation of how.

      Finally, I don't mean to insult you by explaining this, I don't want this thread to devolve into silly name calling, I just want to make my point clear. Sorry for the wall of text, but I felt it was necessary.

  14. BMHunter says:

    Oh another piece of advice ONLY USE SPIRIT BEAST. IF necessary treat your spirit mend as a type of res. bonus and feel free to replace one of your trinks with darkmoon hurricane. Dont use anything but an orc hunter.

    But I will give you another simple logic. When people hear Tauren hunters they are like WORST SPEC EVER. Have you ever thought in pvp the extra 5% base health can be treated like 3% res and able to replace a trinket with darkmoon ?

    so instead of thinking 5% base health + stun ability, think
    5% base health > 340 res think 321 agi + stun.

    For bm hunters first is orc , second is tau

    • Oricc says:

      @BM hunter

      I think you may be posting in the wrong thread, PvP stuff is usually handled by Tappington.

  15. Draeygon says:

    I still wanna see these epic 1 vs 1 videos he promised to post

  16. Bu says:

    Even with scaling… 0.03% decrease looks funny :O)
    IMO Blizzard want to show us what BM spec is not forgotten.
    I can’t see any other explanations ’bout this “nerf” :O)

  17. eltex says:

    One thing when considering recount data on BM and mastery. If the player is not that good, and tends to not maximize his rotation potential, the gains from a mastery stacked BM hunter would probably be higher than a crit hunter due to the pet doing so much damage. If he misses his arcanes and such, or stays focus capped too long, more and more of the damage will move to the pet, and the mastery could be a winner.

  18. hillbillyhatfield says:

    I have a hunter of every race now. And my orc hunter does almost 900 dps more than my 2nd place dwarf speced/forged/geared the same. Taurens are 3rd. Now that is in PVP gear. On PVE, it’s all about the same. I do get a few bursts with the worgens, but there racials are better.

    It looks like that this tier armor will help survival. since fire is under magic. Will it give them a boost.

    • GTyoungblood of Garrosh says:

      @ hillbillyhatfield

      And I thought I was a little eccentric with my four hunters!
      !7;^)

    • Kalven and Hobs says:

      I believe DMC: Hurricane just got normalized in the sense that mastery doesn’t boost it anymore. I would not be surprised to see 2pT12 normalized in the same way.

    • hillbillyhatfield says:

      I didn’t level them all. Wife did probably half. I do run them through dungeons, except guild runs. We both run those. I do all the math with gear/enchant.

      She one of those who want a gnome hunter. She has a 20 slot bag of nothing but Pygmy Oil. Honestly the devilsaurs would step on them. Squish no more gnome hunter.

      Her main is a bloodelf and nightelf.

  19. Kalven and Hobs says:

    OK, please people, let’s bring it back around to the real issue at hand: Set Bonuses.

    I think Shardavarious was onto something saying “Having a full focus bar isn’t, by itself, a DPS loss.” What I believe we should focus on right now is the possible change in rotation conceptualization presented by this possible 4pT12 change. I repeat, possible. Blizzard is throwing some crap on the wall and seeing what sticks. Consider the change to healing Priests 4pT12, or the universal change to tanking 4pT12.

    What we need to focus on is whether or not these bonus concepts mesh well with each of the Hunter specs.

  20. BMHunter says:

    even with pve how does it change the fact that mastery can still pump decent dps for BMs. did anyone even bother to check ? I am more interested for your dps, data you are producing and how you can all conclude the fact mastery is “crummy” specially with each agility, over time unlike mm, bm gains a lot more in AP – even if crit and mastery hold similar dps the mastery will act as an amplifier by at least extra 30% for each added agility for bms. Mastery acts as an amplifier – I really find PvE and I understand with your party buffs a high crit rate can benefit you – but like I said pvp 2s,3s , 5s rated bgs … come on. It’s so obvious why blizzard is nerfing mastery and I am sure they did some tests before they decided to decrease it.

    • Nerec says:

      This is going to be a post for pve and more this is a post you should read and give a try without your rose-red (mastery) glass.

      Mastery dont act like a amplifier. It is only more useful in pvp because you dont are LOS with your target, stand still and fire your full arsenal of shots. In pve you use your full potential out of crit. Critrating have many multiplicative effects with bm spec [go for the throat, sic ’em, killing streak, invigoration] and is carried to your pet. mastery is only on your pet. In this tier of raiding, crit is needed more to improve our dps cause of our talents which multiplicate it usage.

      So your pet does 45% of your dmg (14k dps overall, so 6.3k from pet/7.7 of you). 8 Mastery is standard from the spec, im at work, so can’t look into armory, but I imagine you have 10 more mastery from gear. If you use half of these for crit it will reduce your pet dmg to = 5764.5 dps. 5% more crit on your personal dmg = 8085 dps ==> 13849.5 dps you will laugh here, but you forgot our skaling talents:
      5% more focus for your pet
      5% more focus for you due to invirogation
      5% more sic ’em procs
      5% more crit from your pet = 288.2 dps
      I will let the first three left out, cause it cant calculate it on work, but the gain in pet dps anyone can easy add to the number above. 13849.5 + 288.2 ==> 14137.7 dps *big eyes* YES IT IS PVE, but this is the reason behind frostheims postings..!

      Crit will reach a point in pve from where on any point of critrating will provide less then the point before. But this point is still not reachable in this tier of raiding/arena season.

      btw: your pvp loving tauren, these are only 5k live or so, your stun can be interupted. thats very unuseful if you compare it with the human rational or worgen sprint + crit.

  21. Rymoe says:

    Hi Frostheim and thanks as always for your help making the hunter community a much better place, but please don’t feed the trolls, just hit them with a ban hammer.

    • Kalven and Hobs says:

      I don’t think he made any ad hominum or otherwise offensive arguments, just talked a lot without saying very much.

      • Frostheim says:

        I was thinking more of the “I think your guide is wrong” section talking about how to produce data, and the line “Giving us anecdotal stories of your dps in a raid isn’t something that is reproducible – which is one of the cornerstones of the scientific method.”

  22. Killian says:

    This thread is bordering on unintentional (unless BMHunter is a troll…or is that orc?) hilarity.

    In terms of the tier bonuses, it’s difficult to see how keeping the t-11 x4 is ever going to be worth it once you can actually replace 4 higher-statted pieces with t12. SV rotations probably won’t get too messed up by the free shots, since they try to add Arcane Shots anyway, but MM is going to get really screwy between Aimed Shot!, Arcane Shot, and Chimera Shot. I really can’t see a scenario in which the Chimera Shot glyph remains worthwhile since the current 1-2-5 rotation goes out the window once you start adding additional GCDs.

    • Kalven and Hobs says:

      Now this is interesting. Can you specify what you mean by 1-2-5? I’m guessing that’s Chimera-Aimed or Arcane-Steady, but I haven’t rolled MM since Wrath, so I don’t know.

      Now SV I am familiar with. Saving the proc for the next Explosive instead of using it on an extra Arcane will maximize focus gained from the effect, with Arcane being used afterward to burn excess focus as usual. Black Arrow can also burn up excess focus, but it is still probably better fired after a focus-free Explosive. The fundamental behind this can be called a half a LnL proc without the cooldown reset.

      Just a matter of semantics, but I wouldn’t say SV Hunters try to add Arcane Shots, so much as we simply have a focus-positive rotation that occasionally necessitates burning excess focus.

      As the proc is based only on autoshots, does it add value to haste? I’m sure crit will still boost it’s damage more so, and SV’s mastery will likely boost the damage even more, but it does give haste something else to affect between haste plateaus.

  23. Drackk says:

    I ussualy don´t post but, I have to do it this time.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2522434404?page=22#433

    zarhym´s words:”Good point. Kill Command will be added to the hunter 4-piece set bonus. :)”

    Sorry if this has been posted already.

  24. Furlicity says:

    I tend to agree with BMHunter about mastery can be a better stat then haste for the BM spec . And yes I’m an exclusive BM hunter has and always will be. I’m am not a MM hunter who thinks he knows about BM. I’m a ranked BM hunter in the top 100 in world of logs in 4 Cata Boss fights

    After you reach the First Soft Plateau for haste at 1.6 sec cobra shot its going to be mastery > haste

    Now once your gear gets better and you get the 4 PC set and you can reach the second soft plateau at 1.3 without reforgeing crit then reforge your mastery to haste to reach it but not before you are able to reach that plateau

    I know you MM hunters will throw figures at me showing me different But I’m i firm believer that raid exp as a BM hunter out weighs what some numbers on paper says
    Do you know that according to what numbers on paper show a bumble bee isn’t supposed to be able to fly

    • Kalven and Hobs says:

      You are suggesting people consider mastery>haste during a soft plateau, until able to reach the next hard plateau. This is not the case. Every extra bit of haste gained during a soft plateau will directly increase the number of KC’s cast. This is the nature of a soft plateau.

      You can make all the ranking claims you want, but when you condescendingly say “Now once your gear gets better and you get the 4 PC set” (which you have, I assume? No?) you’re not convincing me of anything.

      You speak dismissively of numbers on on paper, even constructing a theoretical sock puppet to further disagree with. You also perpetuate the myth that science cannot explain a bumblebee’s flight.

      Regardless, what BMHunters claim was that mastery is better than crit. This is just simply not the case in PvE, but this dead horse need no more flogging.

    • threesixteen says:

      amen to this post.

      there are so many factors in a fight which preclude a valid application of mathematical modelling to determine “best” specs etc. True, the math is a guide, but nothing more than that.

      I suspect much of the theory about haste over mastery etc is being sourced by folks that know how to play FemaleDwarf better than an actual BM spec.

      For example, the math might suggest that careful aim has value to a BM, but in practice BM hunters understand that this is a red herring. If a BM is using CoS in first 15 – 20 seconds of any fight, they’re missing something. You’d never get in more than maybe one CoS before your target’s health drops below 80% thus invalidating the worth of those 2 points spent in CA.

      It feels so much like WHU has become this dogmatic expression of Frostheim’s misguided apprehension of how BM plays; likely because of how vastly different it is from Surv and MM. You simply can’t be expected to provide expertise across all three specs if you don’t play them all equally, and it’s unfair to presume a little noodling around on FemaleDward would qualify you to pronounce absolutes on BM “because you have math that says so”.

      obviously all hunters are thankful that Frost has worked so hard to provide a thoughtful and entertaining forum for discussion, but the truth is, it doesn’t appear that you actually have that much “real world” raiding experience (or soloing experience for that matter) with BM.

      Furlicity makes a very salient point along these lines. In-game experience counts.

      • Frostheim says:

        Once again, I do indeed play BM. The value of Careful Aim, to use your example, decreases the better your gear and your raid team get at an encounter — in other words the shorter you make the encounter.

        For progression, we usually assume a 5 minute fight, in which case we know that we have Careful Aim for 1 minute of the fight or so — and we do indeed lose a chunk of that with the BM opening, but still get most of the Careful Aim benefit.

    • Oricc says:

      @Furlicity

      It’s not like there is some conspiracy of MM hunters trying to trick BM hunters into doing the wrong thing. I love playing BM and MM and I frequently switch between them depending on my raid comp and the bosses DPS requirement, and I can tell you that at no point in my experience as BM have I ever been able to clearly tell which stat is better. This is because personal raid experience is so anecdotal and circumstantial.

      If you don’t believe numbers on paper, then please take it from me, a fellow BM hunter with a lot of BM raid experience. The numbers are not tricking you, they are correct and very helpful.

  25. Furlicity says:

    Stacking haste after you reach each Soft Plateau isnt as much of a dps gain as it word be if you did mastery
    haste efects your cast time it doesnt affect you CD
    I dont care how much haste you stack it wont give you more KC
    after you reach each plateau stacking any more haste you will be either pushing back or waiting for KC to come off CD your better off using mastery till you are able to reach the next plateau

    • Frostheim says:

      After reaching a soft plateau is when haste gives you the greatest benefit — it lets you cast your signature shot faster. At the soft plateau is when you squeeze in another shot, but have to push back your signature shot a second or so (but it’s still a dps gain).

      Once you’re there, every bit of haste you get lets you cast your siganture shot more often, in addition to faster auto-shots, more focus regen, and more attacks & focus regen for your pet.

      It’s after you hit the hard plateau that haste gets much worse (no longer affects your signature shot in practice) and then you want to reforge all that extra haste away.

      • Furlicity says:

        I miss spoke i meant to say Hard Plateau in my post

        So Frost you agree then is not always better to stack haste when you reach certain amounts, and that is the point ive been trying to make

        so when you or others say Haste > mastery that isnt alway correct

      • Frostheim says:

        In general, haste is better than mastery for BM; however, when BM is over a hard plateau and not yet at a soft plateau, you then want to reforge excess mastery into crit instead of haste.

        The BM rules of thumb are: reforge out of mastery, leave your crit alone, chase hard plateaus, otherwise chase crit.

  26. Furlicity says:

    I agree with crit over haste and mastery

    but once you reach the hard plateau it will be crit>mastery>haste

    I feel your doing the BM hunters a disservice saying haste is over mastery on all occasions

    You need to get away from the test dummies and female dwarf and actually do some raiding with BM, and then you will understand why on most fights in cata mastery is a better stat then you make it out to be. There is alot of movement in fights in the cata raids. your not standing in one spot like you will on a test dummies or how its calculated with female dwarf. So while your running around getting out of fire your pet is staying on the boss so the extra damage you pet gets from mastery is an increase in your dps. And that is something you cant calculate that is something a spread sheet cant or will tell you its something you need to experience your self

    There has been to many BM hunter running around with excessive amount of haste doing very poorly with their dps because of guilds like yours and other MM hunters misinforming BM hunters because they lack true BM raiding experience and is just passing on information they receive from sites like yours

    This is one reason there are few very successful BM hunter raiders because of this misinformation they are receiving from MM hunters and they quickly switch to MM because of their poor dps in raids caused by the misinformation

    If BM hunters was given more accurate infomation from an experienced BM raider you would start seeing more successful BM raiders that will be able to compete with MM