Zarhym just popped onto the forums for some set bonus clarification, among them a clarification to the hunter t12 4-piece set bonus:

Good point. Kill Command will be added to the hunter 4-piece set bonus. :)

Full thread is Here.

So now we know that Kill Command is included as a “shot” for purposes of this set bonus. This means that SV will be using the proc for a free Kill Command when Explosive is on cooldown and they can’t wait, rather than burning it on a free Arcane Shot. It also means that MM has the option of Kill Command or Aimed Shot to burn theirs with.

BM, on the other hand, always uses Kill Command on cooldown anyway. Furthermore, they tend to be swimming in focus anyway, so BM may have a hard time avoiding using the proc on Arcane Shot — though certainly an option is to work hard to keep your focus bar as low as possible — so if the set bonus does proc, you can just Cobra Shot a couple times without capping and then get your free Kill Command followed by a handful of Arcane’s to bleed your focus back down.

But nice to hear more info about the set bonus making it’s way out. In fact, we now have a pretty solid picture of all of them — 80% weapon damage (maybe normalized, maybe not) for the 2-piece, and a 4-piece that includes Kill Command as a shot, and doesn’t expire when you cast a steady or cobra shot.

Hmm… now it might be time to get out the pencil and paper and start running some numbers. While we still can’t compare to t11 4-piece (since it’s so wildly variable) we can come up with some rough estimates of the dps advantage of t12. Sounds like a job for the weekend!

Thanks to Drackk for spotting the thread first!

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  1. hillbillyhatfield says:

    This makes BM signature shot not really signature doesn’t it. BM need there own shot. A shot that the other 2 don’t have. Bm is becoming a nonspec now. All are good at leveling, BM has lost extreme solo. And last in dps. Other than 2 good raid buffs we are last in about everything.

    • Kalven and Hobs says:

      Only my opinions, take it or leave it:

      BM is a monster in Battlegrounds. Face-eating, machine-gunning, stunningly unstoppable Big Red Monster.

      “Signature Shot” as a concept is an attribution made by players, not devs. (I’m not 100% on this) My point is that each spec is defined by much more than the button it keeps on cool down. Even then, the difference between a BM Hunter’s KC and others is worlds apart.

      Being behind the other two specs in theoretical DPS potential, or even in rankings, does not correlate with the typical raid setting. Even looking at current post-4.0.6 data, BM is only 16% behind MM in top 200 player’s performance. It’s been worse

      Hearing people say BM Hunters need their own shot is sounding vaguely like the call for the new Resto Shammy cool down, something I believe to be lackluster in execution and unnecessary in the first place. The BM setup and rotation is not broken.

      • hillbillyhatfield says:

        @Kalven and Hobs

        Any hunter spec is a monster in BG. If you can not pull giant numbers they your either pitiful, went dc, just started playing a hunter, or took brb for the duration of the match. I’m a user of BM in BG for the heals. If I run one of the bigger BG, I go with MM. BM is a monster, but MM is GOD.

        A signature shot is something the other specs don’t have. I can not use Aimed Shot, Explosive or Chimera. MY big money ability is a ability any hunter can use. Sure it does more damage, but it should since my pet is stronger than the other spec pets. But it’s free dps increase for everyone now. And that isn’t fair.

        Do I like this sure, because it will make my MM go up since I raid and BG in it. But my daily, and some BG build of BM is falling farther behind instead of staying competative. With this both MM and Surv will pull further away from BM.

        I just want a shot for BM that my other spec doesn’t have. Instead BM is being stripped of everything that made it great.

  2. Kayko says:

    And..

    “4-Piece Bonus: You have a 10% chance from your Auto Shots to make your next Kill Command cost no focus.”

    Fixed….

    • Taira says:

      Why is everyone fixating on Kill Command being the “shot” used for the proc here? Given the opportunity, I’m relatively certain that SV and MM hunters will be using their signature shots for the proc. The only time KC comes into play is when we already have the focus for Explosive and Chimera, and when KC is a bigger DPS gain than firing an Arcane shot.

      • Kayko says:

        Well, you should be useing the signature shots when the cooldown is up, not waiting for the proc to come up. Also, you should be planning on having enough focus when your signature are ready. I just do not see a scenerio where anyone should plan on getting a proc.

        In the case of MM, KC does not inturrupt imp steady so use it when you can.

        The question still stands though, will you need the focus in the first place to use any of the free shots? I have a feeling it will be like the MM talent and while KC is free of sorts, you need the 50 focus to even use it.

      • Cydearrm says:

        We’re “fixated” on KC being the “shot” used by the proc because our “signature shots” will almost always be on CD when the proc happens (because they stay on CD just from our normal priority/rotation), leaving AS, AI, and KC as our options for spending the proc. KC is more DPS than AS. I assume AI is more DPS than KC if you can stand still to hardcast it, as well.

        I haven’t been following the thread at all really, so if we have our MMM proc up along with the 4pc bonus, what will happen when we Aimed Shot?

  3. Jaeger says:

    I just find it strange that the trend for the recent changes seem to favor MM and MM is already the top raid spec. So it just pushes MM further away from SV and BM.

  4. Wolflore says:

    Tend to agree with jaeger here, MM already looks like the better scaling spec and having this new bonus that is clearly not good for BM can only make things worse in the long run. BM is good as it is now but not sure about the future. Yesterday we had our first Halfus HC kill and we were 3 hunters in the raid each one with a different spec, I was top dps for the fight as BM followed by the SV hunterwas 3rd and then MM hunter was 7th but he is not as well geared.
    I also understand hillbilly’s point, I think that things would be easier to balance if BM had their own shot. In my opinion BM’s current edge is in its survivability since we have all the survivability tools the other specs have but we also have the heals from pets.
    I hope that they come up with another tier bonus and also one that does not cahnge our rotations as this one will be do.

    • threesixteen says:

      BM does have a ‘signature’ shot: Intimidation. The other specs don’t have this. Sadly, Intimidation isn’t really that effective in PVE; it’s better as an interrupt for PVP… sometimes it has usefullness against certain raid fights, but not very often.

  5. Mascaron says:

    My bars are completely full as they are. You wont see me put kill command on my bars as MM or SV. Just putting that out there.

  6. Jillybean says:

    This is probably a very noob question, but I am just curious. With all of the recent debate about t11 vs t12, I was wondering if it would be possible to have both 2-set piece bonuses from t11 and t12 at the same time? Or even if it would be possible, is it worth doing in regards to the 4 piece bonuses? Thanks!

    • faignz says:

      It is possible to have the 2 piece bonus for both tiers of gear but it’s not something you’ll want to do as the 2 piece bonus for t11 is out classed by the 2 piece bonus of t12 which is outclassed by the 4 piece bonus of t11.

      So you’re not going to really see a nice benefit from splitting your sets this way, in fact I don’t think that’s really been suggested since splitting t2/3 and there was talk of splitting t5/6 once Sunwell hit and we got the other 3 pieces.

      • Kalven and Hobs says:

        Splitting T9/10 was very popular for early ICC, especially as SV. Later in progression and with better gear, 4p T10 did get better, but mostly due to added survivability, as well as arpen.

        Splitting T11/12 does not look attractive.

  7. Suto says:

    So, as a BM hunter, here’s what I’d love to see the 4-piece bonus changed for the free shot to ‘use no focus and not have a global cooldown’ Aka, instant with no global after the shot is fired. At that point, a free arcane shot would be perfect (or a free kill command would be even better). This could be, and probably would be, insanely overpowered, but, still, I just wanted to put the idea out there.

  8. Deepfriedegg says:

    Blue post update:
    4-Piece Bonus: You have a 10% chance from your Auto Shots and Kill Command to make your next shot cost no focus.

    :D I hope this is not what they meant by adding Kill shot to the 4pc bonus

    • browning2 says:

      It may or may not be a typo. If it isn’t, then it takes away the complaint about other specs using BM’s “signature”. It then also gives BM a little edge by allowing another rotation shot to process a free one…..like BM has a ton of focus problems. ><

    • Kayko says:

      In the feedback #2 post, it has the corrected “next shot or kill command” written in it.

      It took maybe a whole 3 posts before someone caught the error and correct the big blue Z.

      • browning2 says:

        Yes, now they have it written 2 different ways in 2 different threads. I am really sad to see the inclusion of KC in this manner. BM is really getting the shaft. Think about shot selections; BM=KC, Cobra and Arcane- MM=Chimera, Aimed, Steady and Arcane- SV=Black Arrow, Explosive, Cobra and Arcane. It is pretty clear where the bias is. Plain and simple, BM does need some type of Spec restricted shot. Look at the specs again for that; BM= none- MM= Chimera and Aimed- SV= Black Arrow and Explosive. It is hard to balance specs if shot selection is limited in this way. It is also easy to see why BM falls short of the other two in DPS.

      • Kalven and Hobs says:

        @browning2

        It is no coincidence that where I place my Aimed Shot and Black Arrow is also where I place my Focused Fire, and that where I place Chimera Shot and Explosive Shot is also where I put my Kill Command. As a matter of fact, BM is the spec with the most buttons to press, with Fervor and Intimidation, followed by SV Hunters who spec into Wyvern Sting.

        Instead of thinking that BM has no spec restricted shot, consider that Focus Fire keeps the rotation fun and interesting while emphasizing a symbiosis with the Hunter’s pet. Consider also that MM and SV use KC only as a last ditch focus dump under rare and special circumstances. They don’t get the awesome boost to damage that has BM Hunters keeping it on cool down.

      • browning2 says:

        @Kalven

        I would hardly group focus fire with cast DPS spells such as Black Arrow or Chimera. In fact, although it is a nice role-play ability to classify it as pet symbiosis, it is sad that BM has a “on use” haste buff when the other specs have it as passive or procced.
        I am not saying that SV or MM is casting KC left and right, I am saying that it is a broken set bonus to allow a large focus ability to be used by both SV or MM when most likely BM will always have it on CD. It will benefit those specs greatly. This is too bad considering BM is behind the curve of those specs.

      • Kalven and Hobs says:

        It is not sad that Focus Fire is on use, neither it is a “role-play ability.” Focus Fire, Bestial Wrath, Invigoration, Ferocious Inspiration, Spirit Bond and the real, balanced and accounted for signature BM shot Kill Command all are examples of excellent design within the theme of Beast Mastery.

        Lamenting a claimed lack of a signature shot, and discrediting Focus Fire for requiring a Hunter to have a pet on target and pay attention to it sounds like nonsense. And the set bonus really doesn’t matter very much in the long run, in consideration to balance.

        Do you want us to go back to where we were? Unemployed? In Northrend?

    • browning2 says:

      Wow Kalven, consider what you wrote versus what I have said.

      I have played BM or SV my whole WoW career, so I know some of the mechanics of the specs. I am looking at overall spec a Olivier, not whether they are “lored” into the spec. Tying an ability to a pet does support the tree, but should it be done at the expense of a solid spec choice? That is what I am asking.

      Focus fire requires us to activate it as well as erase the frenzy stacks our pet acquires. What I said is that it is sad that we have to sacrifice both for our haste buff when the other 2 specs have it either passive or built into their rotation.

      Yes KC is buffed for BM, I am not whining about not having a pet in range, although that is a whole different argument with certain boss mechanics. The 4 piece T12 bonus will break that buff however. Allowing the top DPS spec MM to fire off a free KC is a huge boost. As SV, if I have enough focus during LnL I do use KC. The set bonus does not give us a great option for the proc, we do not have many options to use it on. What will happen is that we will have to try and delaythe buff until KC is off CD, where other specs won’t. They will not autatically use the buff for KC, they should use it on Chim or Explosive if they are on CD. But the fact that they have a good viable secondary option for it is what concerns me. BM got the noob spec title during BC, and I agree there are a heck of a lot of mechanics to watch now making it a complicated spec, but the question I raise is why blizzard is blacklisting a spec that is already so far behind in overall DPS.

  9. Ballboa says:

    Although i will never complain about a dps bonus does anybody else think that they need 6 eyes to watch everything need to pay attention to? In our last raid we were running, the one before the ascendant council, I needed to keep my rotation up, keep an eye on my focus, stay outa the fire, watch and react to engulfing magic, and call out which part of the floor was about to be filled with a fire. Maybe its just me but i give props to anybody that can maintain the 18k dps i’ve heard about while I just try to stay alive.
    Even so a free proc is never a bad thing. Cant wait to try it out.

  10. Lifestreem says:

    “BM may have a hard time avoiding using the proc on Arcane Shot — though certainly an option is to work hard to keep your focus bar as low as possible”

    It’s interesting that you mention this, because one of our new Firelands trinkets…
    http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=68927
    …implies we should do just that. Maybe Blizz had this in mind while designing both the set bonus and trinket.

  11. Kalven and Hobs says:

    Why do people act like MM and SV Hunters are using KC left and right? It is the BM “signature shot”, and balancing takes that it into account. There is no need for an additional BM spec ability.

    • threesixteen says:

      Intimidation is listed as the BM signature shot.

      • Kalven and Hobs says:

        That’s not the ability BM Hunters keep on cooldown. Chimera Shot is considered the MM signature shot, but it is talented. Explosive Shot is the one we consider signature that is given to the spec. The other two are given in other ways, but that makes them no less the signature shot.

  12. Skullmann says:

    Frost, as a big fan and avid reader I’m not trying to call you out. I’m just wondering why your only 7/12 in reg. modes and have never killed a hardmode in Cata. Alot of your gear is blues. I was just shocked to look you up on wow-heroes and the Armory to see you havent done much. any real reason for your vast knowledge, but lack of experience sense the expansion. All my respect, im just wondering. plz.. dont ban me :)

  13. Zilron says:

    I’m wondering if the 4-piece bonus would work better if, in addition to the next shot using zero focus, it also reset the CD on Kill Command? That wouldn’t really make any difference to MM & SV, but would ensure that BM could always use the proc for KC and not have to waste it on AS.

    Thoughts?

  14. Oricc says:

    I think the idea of BM hunters trying to keep their focus down in order to maximize their benefit from the proc is actually a very interesting one. To me this means raising the skill ceiling of BM significantly. As anyone who has been playing BM knows it’s way, way easier to manage your focus as BM as any of the other specs just because KC costs so much less focus than Chim and ES (admittedly SV is pretty mechanical, as ES and BA take up most of your focus, but still as BM it is very easy to float around 40-70 focus without worrying about clipping KC or capping). I think making it more attractive for BM to keep their focus low will help bridge that gap in difficulty between the specs which is nice.

    On the other hand, with the increased scaling of MM and the massive upswing in Arcane mage numbers that we will see in 4.2, unless they are nerfed or fire is buffed, it does seem that BM will become a less and less attractive spec for competitive raiding which is unfortunate.

    I think what we will see soon in 4.2 is a buff to BM mastery and/or Arcane shot if they want to keep BM viable. Any buff to KC will also help the other specs and with increased haste, crit and weapon damage I would not be at all surprised to see hardcast AiS come storming back into our rotations, so an Arcane shot buff would not only serve to balance BM, but would also put Arcane into the MM rotation again.

    Kinda got off-topic, just what’s on my mind.

    • Kalven and Hobs says:

      Hunters will only have to dip low once every minute to keep the trinket haste buff up, and BM Hunters may be able to time it easier with other buffs/burn phases, as well as recover quickly every other proc with Fervor.

      For BM, this may be better than we think for any BM Hunters without either 4pT11 or an otherwise magnificent amount of haste.

      For SV, I’m expecting a proc almost immediately every minute, but it’s a change up from BM. This will be great for any SV Hunters maintaining 4pT11, or an otherwise gargantuan amount of haste.

      For MM, this will likely take haste into a higher plateau for about a rotation and a half. This is going to be fun.

      What is we use this trinket along with Matrix Restabilizer and heroic 4pT11 with haste stacked as MM? Not all at once, but setting up a rotation and reforging based on that setup would be very interesting. I’m not being overly serious with this, just imagining being proficient in 3 rotations at once.

      • Oricc says:

        When I referred to BM’s keeping their focus low I didn’t mean the trinket, I meant to the idea that if you had low enough focus you could save the t12 4 piece proc for a KC which someone (frost?) brought up earlier.

      • Kalven and Hobs says:

        Ahh, sorry, was distracted by the shiny. I see your point.

  15. Kalven and Hobs says:

    @ everyone QQing about BM being broken.

    Beast Mastery has been further reinforced as exactly that, a Master of Beasts. The majority of it’s procs, buffs and abilities are now pet-based. This is how it should be. Adapt to the changes, or stop playing.

    Make one, single good argument as to why the BM spec is fundamentally broken or not viable in raids, and I will take it all back and never bring it up again.

  16. browning2 says:

    It is hard to answer that question Kalven, how do you define broken or viable? Those terms mean different things to different people.

    The only reply I will give the is check thestateofdps logs and see where BM hunters stack up. I realize there are arguments about this site, but BM hunters are consistently in the bottom 5 dps on the fights. That is a pretty good indication that BM is broken or not viable.

    • Kalven and Hobs says:

      What I mean by broken is either too complicated to play well or too simple to be interesting. BM is neither of those. It’s talent setup and rotation is intuitive, and once people understand what a soft haste plateau is, stat priority becomes obvious.

      Another thing that can break a spec is a bad mastery, like how Sub Rogues Main Gauche’s first iteration was in direct opposition to it’s slow/fast weapon fundamental. This is simply not the case with BM. I believe BM is the only Hunter spec to ever stack mastery over haste and crit (for PvP).

      Whether a spec is viable or not is a matter of opinion, I suppose, so I’ll just share my opinion and let this part of the argument go. A spec is not viable if it cannot beat DPS checks. Someone has to be on the bottom of the chart, and if that is again Sub Rogues and Frost Mages, so be it. The bottom sucks, but so long as the bottom isn’t so disparately low as to be unable to meet DPS requirements, it is viable.

      As an aside, consider also that BM moves up the list here and there. It is middle of the pack on N 10man ODS, Chimeron, Atramedes, Maloriak, Nefarion and Twilight Council. In Heroic, it’s Atramedes and Maloriak ranking drops a bit, but it then is middle of the pack on Val & Ther and Ascendant Council, dominates Cho’gall and ranks very well on Conclave. My point is, it is certainly not bottom 5 across the board.

  17. Bu says:

    Patch 4.2 PTR Notes Update – May 24th

    “Hunter 4P: The effect which makes Shots cost no focus now also makes Kill Command cost no focus”