Little update on multi-shot from Ghostcrawler:
Our current version of Multi-Shot has not target cap. It’s a little like Fan of Knives.
It’s looking like the aoe version of multi-shot will look a lot like the normal version of multi-shot, just with unlimited targets. This means that you have to hit it every time you want the effect (it has no cooldown, but limited by your focus) and you’ll have to recharge focus every few shots. This also means that it will not ignore our minimum range as volley did. Nor can you eat food, send IMs, and play solitare as you could during volley channel.
As I’ve explained at ponderous length before, I’m vehemently against the minimum range given the way the game is currently balanced. However, if you’re going to have a minimum range as part of the hunter mechanic, it doesn’t make a lot of sense to give us dps shots that ignore that minimum range, and this was an anticipated effect of the volley replacement.
Yes! Remove minimum range! Arrow cleave FTW! lol
I hope you get a better deal then FoK that thing sucks up 50 Engery per use and isn’t worth the damage it does and if it has a Min Range that could be even worse for AoE kind of stuff
well, this is a step in the right direction. seems blizz is at least looking at what we have to say, what we want, and giving us something that will work.
my question will be, what’s going to dictate the targets that it hits? will be it be a conical effect with say a 45 degree area that it hits? or more likely is it going to be all targets withing X radius from the targetted mob? and will it ignore CC’d targets?
Well, the way I look at it, FoK doesn’t require a target. Its a real AoE. All uncapped AoE doesn’t require a target. Holy nova, blizzard, Frost and Explosive Traps, flame strike, FoK, Volley, etc etc. Area of Effect spells target an Area. I expect the functionality will be more like the Amazon’s Multi-shot from Diablo 2, with similar WoW game mechanics to Dragon’s Breath/Typhoon. It’d be awesome to have a Glyph that would add a knockback and a cooldown for PvP/Extreme soloing, but that’s probably only a pipe dream.
Maybe I’m being overly optimistic, but if I’m right in my guess, then its a big step in the right direction. If a target is required still, then it isn’t
Note also that at least currently Concussive Barrage still works with multi-shot. So a muti-shot that hits everyone in front of you within range and slows them all at the same time? Very nice!
that makes me wonder if they are going to by chance change bombardment since if it hits infinite targets, then after 3+ targets it’s a nearly guarenteed chance for your next multi to have 50% less focus cost. theoretically in an aoe situation, after your first multi nearly every multi after that should be 50% less, causing marks to really lead the other 2 specs in terms of aoe output.
also, liking the concussive barrage a little more with this, reminds me of a more powerful effect to a druid’s hurricane’s slow.
Frost I have request for additional testing into MD. I would like to know what happens if you MD Og and then Hrist taunts off him, does the threat only fade from Og ot will it fade from Hrist aswell?
@Necrie
Actually Cat druids swipe is a 90 degree damage in front of the druid (might be 90 degrees from the target, but doesn’t seem like it.) and requires you to have a target which is just BS. If they do the same to multi shot it will suck.
Concussive Barrage working with it is pretty nice. On the other hand, Serpent Spread looks bad-ass too.
@Kaiya
True, but then wouldn’t have made more sense for GC to say its like Swipe ? But either way, we should hopefully find out in a build or two ^_^
I tend to think more along the DnD style of spell. Feral Swipe is more of an unlimited cleave than an AoE, from that point of view. But that’s probably more of an issue with how my brain works, lol.
Oh, and Conc Barrage working with what we’ve been theorizing for the new multi…. that’d be scary amazing. I know the cry for nerfs from the PVP community would be quite loud /sigh.
While my mind is wandering somewhat randomly… Does anyone ever wonder what GC and the Dev team have planned for us in Melee… It’d take me a while to find it, but I remember a blue post from a while back where GC said that they’d like us to be about 80% effective in melee to deal with the whole issue Frost brought up in the last HPP about how currently, the correct answer is to always close into melee with the hunter, because we’re not a threat there. Kind of a head scratcher, as here we are, overhauling the class, and we’re just as weak, if not weaker, in Melee.
Yaaaar, new multi-shot will probalby be awsoem, but yea thers a but, makes as look even more like ranged rouges wich is a bad thingy
Woot ! Took some digging, but my googleFu was strong
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=13392250901&postId=133921562972&sid=1#1
Sayeth GC:
“…Now long term, something we are going to explore a lot more is just plain juicing up hunter melee capabilities. You’ve got mail and you’ve even got some melee weapon strikes. If those were actually scary abilities, then a melee (or caster) class that closes with you risks taking a beating. The hunter could choose to flee or stand and fight. We’re not talking about giving hunters a viable melee option (like Survival has flirted with a couple of times). But imagine your melee damage was 80% of your ranged damage. Ranged would always be preferable, but melee would be a decent last resort rather than pretty pathetic (as it is now). I want to stress that this is a long-term change, not something you’ll see in the next patch or two, and I’ll be the first to suggest that it may not work out. But it is an idea we’re discussing.”
Re-reading it now, the tone is more thoughtful than any sort of a promise or plan, but still… it doesn’t seem like we’ve had any movement in that direction.
Necrie: That info is from 2008. It looks like that idea was discussed, and then discarded. Everything we are hearing now says that hunters are meant to be purely ranged.
As for the Multishot change, how is that going to work, I wonder? Will it just not hit anything within 5 yards? If you think about it, that’s awfully silly. Imagine a hunter firing arrows at a mob of targets, but the arrows magically don’t hit the closest ones.
@Necrie: 12/11/2008 – IIRC wotlk came out 13/11/2008. So sounds like you just dug up an ancient wotlk tought rather then something that means anything for cataclysm.
As for the multishot change, that was highly expected seeing how they reworked whirlwind and the like. I just hope the MM daze stays as well as SV’s serpent sting addition. That would really be interesting and fun in both pvp and pve.
dind now where to post this :What do u think is better for a surv hunter [Zod's Repeating Longbow] or [Njorndar Bone Bow]?Thx
This looks pretty cool; like a shotgun blast rather than a hail of arrows.
Will be fun to Beastal wrath machine gun this thing, and presumably Survival will alternate with steady shots to make the most of serpent spread.
Well I had thought Multishot might get morphed into something like this but I figured it would be like a cone effect. Everything within 45 degree’s of the hunters front would be hit. They’re going to have to ramp the damage a little if it has downtime which other AOE doesn’t due to the need to regenerate focus.
But its a step in the right direction I guess.
Indeed, to add: i hope its cone like (or aoe arround the target, as a 40y cone might be a bit OP). If its literally fan of knives style – not only is 360 shooting weird it also forces us to /hug the tank for optimum effect, with risk of not hitting targets due to minimum range.
@Otunga – Serpent Spread also has the advantage of being a talent Survival will actually take rather than MM’s Concussive Barrage.
Although Multi Shot working as an AoE in conjunction with the stun from CB will be hilarious in PvP. Actually, it will likely be deemed OP and CB will end up not working with the redesigned Multi Shot.
Heh. “…a little like Fan of Knives.” Cue the ranged rogue doomsayers.
Oh bugger, I didn’t even think to look at the post date on that… My bad.
Eh, like I said, it was a random memory that’d been floating around in the back of my head for a while now, and Frost’s comments in the HPP brought it back to the forefront of my mind. I simply thought that if they did decide to go forward with it, now would be a logical chance. Ah well. As you said, they probably benched the idea and moved on.
why is that hunters have a minimum range mechanic? in real life it makes sense, but wow isnt real life so why cant i shoot my target even if someone is meleeing me?
It’s not fan of Knives, it’s fan of bullets. get it right
I for one am a fan of the concept. Between interspersing steadies to keep focus up, plus the various interacting talents (bw /bombardment for focus, serpent spread for extra damage) i think it’ll be a nice replacement for volley. Yeah, it’ll prolly be painfully sensitive on our positioning, but face it, what the hell isn’t for us? AoE is getting kicked in the junk across the board, so I won’t be surprised if it still hits like a stream of marshmellows. But i still prefer that to volley.
@Rain, that’s a damned good point, and a question I’ve often asked. Why are we the only ranged class with a minimum range? Mages, druids, priests, shamans, and warlocks can all be right in your face and still cast, so why do we get hosed with a minimum range?
Dharion, well…for one..
I could see shooting somebody with a gun at point blank, like a shotgun etc but using a bow at minimum range looks a little unrealistic doesn’t it?
@David “A-List” Otunga
what part of WoW is so realistic in the first place? if tanks cant still attack a dragon WHILE being attacked by its frie breath then, yeah, hunters should be able to shoot a gun or BOW in an attackers face when hes in theirs lol
So if I shot you at point blank with a bow do you think it would kill you? I do. Never understood how minimum range is feasible.
I like the idea of Multi hitting many more targets. Why I don’t think will work (as multi works currently) is that multi is pretty flimsy in it’s accuracy. It’ll be as problematic as a starfall in the wrong places. What I liked about volley is that I could hit a bunch of targets in a designated area. I am very careful when I hit multi that I am not going to hit a stray mob. With multi as a massive AoE I think there will be a good chance of that happening.
An arrow really only has the momentum from the string and distance etc, a gun has the impact from the powder etc exploding in the barrel. Shotguns for example are usually better at close range.
“So if I shot you at point blank with a bow do you think it would kill you? I do. Never understood how minimum range is feasible.”
Due to something called the archer’s paradox, an arrow will flex and wobble as it leaves the bow and be inaccurate for the first few yards. That said, inaccurate means you can’t hit a 2″ bullseye at that range (easily anyway). Hitting a man size target at that range? No problem. Hitting a Dragon sized target? Laugh.
Interestlngnly, point blank, comes from the old french point blanc (blanc meaning white). This is the range at which if you sighted on a hankerchief dropped on the ground in front of the target, you would hit the bullseye. That is, around 60 yards. This was considered easy range. I would gladly agree to a ‘realistic’ minimum range, if Blizzard would give us a realistic maximum to our range. I would settle for 100 yards; but I watched my sweetie put 6 out of 6 shots into a man sized target at 150 yards (with a crossbow, no that it matters too much). Fair’s fair.
I simply wanted to say thank you for your work.
I’ve only discovered your blog today (and your beta video yesterday).
I’m a lot less worried about the next extension than I was before.
I was planning on leaving my current server to move to a pvp server (because pvp is what I like^^) when the extansion comes but was very worried I wouldn’t be able to play my class anymore.
It’s so much nicer to read this than the troll posts in the hunter forum; almost soothing.
well, thanks
Yeah the only thing that concerns me is the minimum range with the AOE currently you could be standing in the middle on the trash while dropping your volley AOE . There are some boss fights were basically your on the bosses toes and volley down as you get more dps from volley then hand to hand combat if multi shot has a minimum range then you will no longer be able to do this , which decrease our options again at melee range. I could live with the multi shot but get rid of that dam minimum range thing if someone is standing in front of my rifle and pull the trigger guess what the gun shoots and normally hits the target right infront of you why can’t wow be the same.
yeah the minimum range is going to be bad. they need to remove that. its just insane the even have it. i know its a game but real life you can point blank, why not in game?
For those of you wondering why other ranged classes can stand in melee and still cast, but hunters can’t:
Before I started my Shaman, I would have agreed that it’s bogus, especially considering how many tools other classes have to keep themselves right on top of us. We’ve got tools to get away as well, though, and we’re balanced around using them.
The real PvP balance issue comes into play when considering interrupts. If a hunter could stand at melee range and pump out the exact same amount of damage, it would be unbalanced. Casting classes in melee range suffer spell pushback, and interrupts which effectively reduce their dps to the point where it’s equivalent to a hunter’s pet.
Just wondering if “like a Fan of Knives” implies it will not require a target and will shoot in 360°. It would be kind of lame but this it what “like FoK implies”. Or will it be rather “ranged cleave” shooting anything in a frontal cone? Really, why cant it just hit targets in X yds radius from our current target?
@7seti: good point there, actually, I think Fradin brought it up too… How is it going to look like having a minimum range? Will the multi-shot just NOT hit those of the mobs that are a little closer to you? Or, worse, will the multi-shot just not work BECAUSE some of the mobs are still too close to you (too close = below minimum range)? :-S
@Skarr
Hunters do suffer from pushback as well, so I still do not consider that a valid reason for us to maintain a minimum range.
@ Macerin
Interrupts are the bigger factor, here. Hunters don’t have to fake cast to get off any spells in melee. Imagine if disarms were implemented to be more like interrupts (shorter duration, much shorter cooldown in most cases) and you had to worry about getting disarmed every time you shot in melee. That would be more along the balance that other ranged are subjected to, and if that were the case I wouldn’t see much of a reason to have a minimum range.
The point is that Blizzard wants ranged classes to be ranged, and minimum range was how they ended up implementing it for hunters. I’m not saying it was the best way they could have done it, however.
I like it.
Also note – since this thread is no longer about volley
– the minimum range is OK. No, it is not OK, it is good, extremely good .. IMHO. It is what defines us hunters.
I always saw it as we have higher armor and stamina than clothies, so they get no minimum range. A warrior beating on a clothie is different than it beating on us.
Note also that our range has just been extended in cata. So unless other classes also gets this, I realty see no issue with minimum range as we just get a few yards extra on the oher end.
It also makes no sense. Why else should we have melee weapons?
Also it makes no sense in reality. Bows at 1 feet distance? Common’ even though you hate minimum range, be honest that is ridiculous. Historical battles where also non-bows and non-guns on short range. Gunman in ancient would often flee when teh enemie was close and guns had special plates on them so they could be dragged quicly as they were to heavy to carry. There are even saysings on that in some European languages. Our guns and bows are not modern weapons to be used at short range.
Really, I cannot come up (even after reading these threads) with one single argument to have no minimum range, other than personal preferences. And Blizzard has already done way to much to make the game easy, so my preference is to keep minimum range in.
That said – back to ontopic – I’m going to miss volley where I could use it to “spray” myself. Of course that in a way was ridiculous.
I’m only worried a bit, on how the range is. At this moment multi-shot is much wider than volley. That has it ups and downs. You don’t want to pull too much mobs. On the other hand, I also see many new possiblities. So as stated, I like this concept.
I’m good with no more volley. Never liked the mechanic anyway. As far as the minimum range is concerned, I don’t mind, however, what I would like to see is one shot (just one), on a short CD that we could fire inside the minimum range that would knock back and slow our target. Something like Concussive Shot with a knockback. That would effectively replace the pvp volley mechanic, since you could shoot the rogue, knock him back and disengage to draw more distance.
@Armin
Warlocks and Arcane Mages got their range increased by 10 yards to 40, Fire Mages by 5 yds to 40 and Frost Mages by 5 to 35yds. Correct me if I am wrong, please.
mmo-champion reports a new Beta-build that was not released to the servers:
* Cataclysm Beta – Build 12857
* Multi-Shot – Fires several missiles, hitting your current target and all enemies within yards of that target for x% of weapon damage. / 40 Focus, 5-35 yd range, Instant
So they did it exactly how I suggested
Note that the shot itself has minimum range and the max range is shorter but that mostl likely refers to the primary target. Most likely you will be able to hit even targets behind you and beyond 35 yards with the “splash” damage effect.
It will be interesting to find out the breakpoint between single target damage and AoE in terms on number of targets.
I believe they just gave us Sylvanas’ Multi-Shot. Finally.