We think Multi-Shot is a more interesting ability and can fill the hunter AE niche (along with Explosive Trap). We’ll have to change Multi-Shot from the current version to get it there. I’m very sorry if for some unusual reason Volley was your favorite spell as a hunter. We’ve been trying to consolidate abilities and free up some bar space and having multiple AEs that competed with each other seems like a good area to hit up. The Volley and Multi-Shot niches were very similar, which resulted in the latter being dead. We wanted to pick one and we though Multi-Shot felt more huntery and less “clunky” (to use a favorite Wow forums term).
Do consider that you won’t be AE’ing yourselves through Cataclysm content the way you do currently. When you do need to AE, hunters will have the tools to do so. In situations where you do have to AE, you are probably not also trying to CC. When you’re back to the level of trivializing lower level content, nobody is going to say “Don’t bring a hunter. Their AE spam isn’t spammy enough.” We don’t consider easily breaking rogues out of stealth a good reason to keep Volley around.
It’s nice to get some confirmation that they do plan to change multi-shot to make it valid for aoe. I hope that they actually make it an aoe, of course : )
I’m still a little curious about how they removed volley. If they think hunter aoe can be done better, fair enough, I even agree. But why remove volley now and not at the same time that they had the volley replacement to offer? Did they want to spark this discussion? Or did they remove volley and then go “whoops!”
They didn’t go whoops…They went(to be read in red type) “GOOD GOD REMOVING VOLLEY WAS A BIGGER F*** UP THAN NEW COKE…GC POST SOME FLIMSY REASON LIKE WE DO WHEN WE RETCON LORE”
Or one dev had on his list “remove volley” and another guy had on his list “Improve multi-shot”. Then the second guy gets the flu and is off work for a week. Ta-da!
“The Volley and Multi-Shot niches were very similar, which resulted in the latter being dead.” Okay, so if Multi-Shot is already dead then improve it or remove that one instead of Volley. The hunter class is already changing enough as it is.
For whatever reason I never considered multi-shot an AE because it wasn’t channeled the way volley was.
If they want to get rid of volley then multi-shot should hit more like 5 targets and if it’s not channeled, it should apply a short duration DOT to its targets, use a substantial amount of focus and have a longer cooldown, otherwise we’re gonna be using it more than we should in the absence of volley. But that’s just me.
Then again, apparently we won’t be AOEing down mobs in cataclysm like we did in wraith (not sure if this is the case in beta so far..I”m trying to remain spoiler free as much as possible and sticking mostly with talent upgrade data) In which case I’m happy to stick with best single party DPS in the game.
i hate to inform u ..but being best single target dps isnt gonna get u into ICC raids..or naxx….
unless u can pull off 12k hits at once second intervals….can u ??
one second intervals*
single target DPS*
GAH!
I really dont know if they replace it with a rogue Fan of knives like cone frontal attack like old school diablo 2 multi shot it will be no biggy.
With no cooldown and balanced damage
but a 10 sec cooldown huge focus draining 3 max target hitting slap with a wet bus ticket would be bad
would have to be similar to damage out put to a warriors whirlwind and rogues FoK
Sounds likely to me that they’re in a schedule. So removed Volley and didn’t have time to change Multi-Shot properly. That actually backs up the idea that they’re changing the entire mechanics of the shot instead of just buffing up damage or number of targets hit. Plus they’d get feedback from the current state of Multi-Shot, something they didn’t get before simply because no one used the damn thing with Volley on their action bars.
@Iceveiled, Multi-shot is NOT an AoE and has never been an AoE. It is NOT an area-of-effect spell. It’s a multi-target spell. It affects 3 targets, no more. This, apparently, is changing. That’s good. Multi-shot is pretty dead right now. So long as Blizzard alters Multi-shot and Explosive trap enough that we can effectively AoE, the loss of Volley is fine.
It IS a bit odd that they’d take out Volley without adding the revamped Multi-shot, but this IS beta. They don’t have to do everything at once like they do on live.
I think it’s unfair to blame multi-shot’s lack of use on volley. Volley isn’t why we didn’t use multi-shot — we didn’t use multi-shot because even with 3 targets it does less damage than cobra shot, explosive shot, or Kill Command (in every spec). There was no reason to use it, any spec with the focus to spare could just hit kill command and do more total damage than a 3-target multi-shot.
However, the Serpent Spread talent now makes multi-shot worthwhile for SV. I don’t feel like barrage makes it worthwhile yet for MM, and BM’s got nothing (especially with their stronger Kill Command).
The pessimist in me thinks they F’ed up, the optimist thinks this is all according to plan. The pessimist is dominant though.
Hey Ghostcrawler, how bout you drop that minimum range on shots again and we call it even on the whole Multi-Shot/Volley thing.
I doubt that Blizzard has thought about new hunter characters. They need to realize that not all toons are at level 80. How are you going to level a hunter from 1 to 80 so that you can actually get to the new content? No raid leader is going to invite a AOE-Less hunter to an ICC or NAXX run. And NO, MS is not an AOE because you can not control the area it attacks, therefore dragging extra mobs into the fight (and getting yelled at by the tank). I guess the only way to level a new hunter toon will be to not install CAT or uninstall Cat until you get to level 264 gear…….
the removal of volley is going to be a patch BEFORE cata comes out…so whether u have the new game installed or not…u WON’T have volley….
i totally agree with u on the point of starting a new character at level 1 and trying to move up thru the game..it is going to be almost impossible for a hunter to get a group now..it is already quite difficult!! …i love hearing ppl tell me on forums things like…”nobody runs naxx or old instances anymore…” …wtf…?? why would i wanna skip the major portion of world or warcraft instances? there are many achievements and yes i love doing sunwell too…there are guilds out there that dont level some toons past 60 or 70 because they have fun doing these raids in the appropiate tier gear..even if they do have level 80′s to play…so now hunters are gonna be useless ….how would we even run deadmines in low levels? gather a mob…and oops…multishot isnt gonna work..mobs are inside minimum range..hmm…ooops..the lowbies died…*guild kick*..lol
i sure hope blizzard realizes many ppl are gonna quit the game due to this radical change to a very popular class…myself included…how can they reconcile hunters being the only class without an AOE ..?
Well, that’s exactly what I meant: with Volley in, there was absolutely no reason to even have Multi-Shot in your action bars. With Volley removed, Blizzard should now have have at least a little more information on the average damage people get with their Multi-Shots (as they probably log everything on the Beta realms), as well as their opinions on the forums.
No one was talking about Multi-Shot before, now they are. Announcing Volley was going to be removed wouldn’t bring up nearly as much discussion (and would likely bring up even more QQ). It’s funny how a lot of guys on the Beta forums are still going all doom and gloom, even though GC has already said Multi-Shot is changing to compensate for it. Plus who knows? Maybe we’ll get a buff to Explosive Trap as well. As it is, it’s never done enough damage to be relevant except when the AoE cap is bringing your DPS down.
btw…i use mutlshot ..it is on my bar..always was…it gives out fairly good dps once a tank has a mob u can safely use it …it just cant be used in the same way as volley for obvious reasons…and it surely cant replace volley lol
how would u use explosive trap as an aoe?? hmm..*tries to toss explosive trap…* nope…*tries to toss snake trap.* dang..not that either…oopsey..my snakes dropped under me…mobs come close…i move…but my traps stay there..and holy crap i agrgroed the whole dungeon…*raid kick*….yay…huntard huh
I don’t have access to the beta, but the smoke bomb ability Rogues were said to receive was meant to make them untargetable from range, but with aoe still being able to hit them, If this ability is still in existence (I don’t follow rogue changes) what options do we have when they use it?
Interesting. Frost, can you comment on the gameplay of cata and not aoe’ing mobs down? From what I understand, Blizz just means they are nerfing aoe a bit to keep people from simply mowing down the mobs and making a beeline to the boss. But does this change also mean a change in the setup of the environment in cata? Meaning, are there less mobs and more spread out, yet tougher individual monsters? What affect does that have on the size of areas and population of monsters and respawn rates and so on?
I’m already wondering how these changes will affect farming, dungeons, soloing etc. AOE always let people move faster though levels so it will be interesting to see how nerfed aoe is. I wonder if there will be an increase in single target abilities/skills or a dps increase with the current ones.
Either way, it’s hard to imagine wow without aoe. I only started playing wow about two months ago so i’m sure Frost could tell me about the good ole’ days of vanilla and how aoe was back then.
Or,he can just multi shot his ass!!!
There was discussion about multi-shot before, just there was total agreement that the damage was too low to ever use it, thus there weren’t pages of discussion — we all agreed : )
@Duckaholic see yesterday’s post about dungeons. Every one so far is designed with aoe pulls, including one boss fight. It’s still a part of the game.
if aoe pulls are still part of the game…i guess hunters are dead?
and all the rest of the game play is aoe based basically…every other toon has aoe spells of some kind….well…if blizzard really does remove volley..(.the ONLY aoe shot hunters have)…then i guess they dont want anyone to play that class in raids or dungeons….since every other toon has an aoe spell of some sort that causes damage and is targetable or controlled….lets go over the list of classes first!!
-mages have blizzard..flamestrike…frost nova..
-warlocks…rain of fire…
-rogue…fan of knives…
-warriors..whirlwind AND thunderclap…
-deathknight..death and decay..AND bloodboil AND desecration
-druids…starfall..AND swipe(bearform)..ohh and an aoe healing spell..yay..
-priests…holy nova!…AND ..mind sear!!…
-shamans…chain lightning…flame totems..sigh..need i go on..=(..yes..
-paladins have consecration..plus other aoe’s depending on their talent tree..!
so….hunters will be the ONLY class WITHOUT a targetable and controlled aoe …multishot is just random and not controllable..it MAY or may not hit multi targets and u never know exactly where its gonna hit…hence its useless in raids…and even dangerous depending on mobs …does anyone else think blizzard hates hunters?? first they give us spirit pets..wonderful right? …NOT..cause then they decided to nerf us so badly..that we cant even use Beast Mastery for anything but looks…why did we get spirit pets?? ..dps is horrible in bm unless u have VERY excellent gear..oh..and u can use volley lol
yay…in cata we are gonna get lots of new pet slots…so there is gonna be lots of cool looking hunters running around in crappy gear being laughed at for having 1k dps..and NO aoe…would u want one in ur raid??..wooohoo..we can shoot orbs in TOC..! how bout in Ulduar..its gonna be fun single targeting scrap bots..dang all they gotta do is replace us with a mage..or a warlock…maybe its time to find a new game to play..hunters are my fave class in world of warcraft and right now im VERY sad and disappointed and hardly feel like buying more time to play..sigh…
plz dont say traps are aoe …they are dropped..not shot..and have a huge cooldown and are rarely used in raids…when did u last use a frost trap in lichking fights??
IMHO, Volley can never be replaced by Multi Shot, even with the use of traps, as:
1) Volley is far more versatile
2) Multi Shot has a minimum range.
3) Traps have a rather long cooldown.
Think Leeeroy or Onyxia Whelps or the rats in Stratholme. They’d all be damn annoying to handle without Volley.
even the rats in strat would be impossible for a hunter to kill except with melee weapon at close range…how else would we kill them?? i love running lower level guildies thru instances..but i guess now i might as well delete my hunter since i wont even be able to protect them from the rats in stratholme now…=(
Well… we can’t really say that, can we? Ghostcrawler has said they are changing multi-shot so that it will serve our aoe needs. Since we don’t know what it’s changing to, we can’t yet say what it will or won’t do.
“The Volley and Multi-Shot niches were very similar, which resulted in the latter being dead.” – Has this person ever even played a hunter?
I do not agree in any way what so ever that Volley and Multi-Shot are two of the same “type” thing and I never even once considered “should I used volley or should I use multi.”
1) Volley is best for groups of more then 3.
2) Volley can be used at melee range.
3) Volley can hit things that would otherwise be out of LoS.
4) Volley can shoot behind you.
1) Multi is best for 2 or 3 mobs.
2) Multi is only good at range.
3) Multi can only be used when you have LoS.
4) Multi you need to be facing the target.
Don’t know about you, but they are not even in the same ball park when it comes to abilities. Even if they make multi act a little more like volley we will have a new volley and have lost multi. No matter what happens, we lost a small amount of versatility.
As for the latter being dead I will once again ask, has this person ever even played a hunter? Multi is a huge shot in more situations then volley is. It is just not even half as versatile as volley is. Anytime there are even 2 mobs I Multi Shot, 2 12K hits are better the one 16K hit from aimed.
Anyone from Blizzard referring to getting rid of one of the skills because they are the same skill should be moved to another department or fired as apparently they are not doing their job if they think two totally different things are the same thing.
*gives thumbs up to ThGrumpyElf!!!!*
@Ognib
I’m not sure I really understand your point here. The loss of volley won’t occur intil the prepatch to Cat, which will be maybe a month before release, at which time I don’t really see a lot of people raiding ICC. Hardly anyone ever runs Nax now as it is. I also don’t understand why ICC or any other raid instance is required to level anything. Most people will leave Northrend at 78 to go to Cat anyways. When was the last time you heard of anyone running Sunwell to gear up their level 70 alt for Northrend? It seems you are under the impression that you are unable to hit max level without raiding the previous expansion’s raids. Maybe I’m just confused.
Once Cat is released, there will be essentially a gear reset, so all that ICC gear really won’t mean anything anymore anyways. I also don’t really see a raid leader not inviting people because of weak AoE abilities. As a raid leader I’d be more concerned with getting variety of buffs, and classes, and ensuring I have the best damage possible. The last thing I’m thinking of is how efficient we’ll be on AoE trash pulls. Especially if they follow through on their promise and greatly reduce the amount of AoE. Granted we’ve seen some glimpses at a few 5 mans, but what I’m interested in is the raid content. I’m expecting we won’t see massive amounts of AoE there and will be spending a lot more time cc and burning down single targets, and maybe even priority targets. 5 mans can be entire AoE fests as far as I’m concerned, once we get through the first raid tier everyone grossly out gears them anyways.
With all that said, I do currently morn the loss of Volley. I don’t really understand the logic in removing the spell. “You have enough AoE as it is” isn’t a good enough explanation. My rebuttal to that simply is, fine then either don’t give us AoE situations, or take AoE away from everyone and be done with it. Mages and Warlocks both have 3 or more AoE spells taking up space on their bars. Are you going to take away Blizzard and Rain of Fire aswell? The way this was handled felt like Hunters in particular were being picked on.
I also think it was a big mistake to simply remove the spell without a “Here’s our plan for Hunter AoE”. Personally I think Volley was something they decided internally to remove, but hadn’t come up with a replacement plan and someone jumped the gun early. I am very interested in what they plan on doing to Multi-Shot to make me want to put it on my bars again. I’d be pretty happy with a Seed of Corruption clone. Maybe an arrow that damages all nearby enemies on explosion? It would fit the focus model much better than a channeled spell, and would provide a good option for multiple target damage without the worry of pulling extra adds.
One question is what are our AOE needs, the second is are they going to change Multi shot to make it comparable to volley.
Keep in mind that by the time a build is released on beta, the developers are already a few build iterations ahead of the rest of us – the builds that are released for testing are a snapshot of the game state at the time the build was compiled and then goes through a process to be made ready for beta release – though likely in a buggy or incomplete state. When we get a new build it is not the build the developers were working on earlier that day.
So while from our perspective we see a sudden removal/addition/change of abilities, mechanics, features, etc (and mostly without warning), the developers are already working on subsequent changes that we are, as of yet, unaware of. If their new changes then require any art or tech development or other development processes, internal testing, etc it will delay it’s appearance until a subsequent build. Also the quality assurance department is not in force on the beta (which is why beta is a buggy, sometimes broken, and sometimes frustrating environment.) Such is the nature of a development process. Now had this sudden removal of Volley occurred on live without warning and without a replacement, well we’d all be screaming a lot louder, and rightfully so.
I fully agree with “TheGrumpyElf”. Both Multi Shot and Volley have their uses, and I find myself using both, depending on the situation.
Blizzard may want to clean up my taskbar, but why? I certainly didn’t ask for it, because I actually like having to make decisions based on the current situation, instead of following a simple priority – deciding whether to use Volley or Multi Shot is one such decision.
But the really sad thing, is the way Blizzard continuously keeps nerfing the game, step by step removing all the challenges that made the game fun to play.
what do u mean by removing the challenges? nerfing yes…increasing the challenges…yes…removing them?? i sure hope they give hunters a bunch of new melee spells and weapons…since we wont need our bows or guns much anymore lol
2 words, machine gun, there’s ya a change to muilt, channeled, aoe frontal cone damage.
yay…so now hunters need to run up close…do a frontal cone attack..channeled like volley??wtf??…die to melee damage or cleaves….cause raid wipe… be kicked cause we are useless huntards?
It seems to me the proper course of action, would have been to blue post the direction of multi-shot and the removal of Volley. His post comes across as reactionary and snide. I would much rather that they admit they made a mistake. That would give me more confidence that they will actually give us a viable aoe when it is needed.
I am confident that this was most likely done specifically to spurn conversation that the devs can look at and see what general thinking is so that they can hopefully make Multi-shot another beloved hunter ability. At least to some degree, though I suspect that the “dev schedule” comment above has some real weight to it.
It is important to remember that Beta is not a game, it’s a test bed. Blizzard didn’t invite people to the Beta because they thought people might enjoy getting to play the content first before anyone else, they did it because they need players input on what works and what doesn’t. They also need things like stress testing and so forth (this will come later as they bring more people in and open the beta to the public)
I don’t expect most people to really understand what a Beta really is, but as someone who works for a software company, I can see a lot of the things Blizzard is doing as normal and standard so none of this really strikes me as odd or out of place. They aren’t required to replace volley on beta the moment they remove it. Hell, I wouldn’t want them to. Spend time properly developing multi-shot and we can have a winner.
well i hope they hear the avalanche of reactions they are getting and put volley back where it was …since there wasnt any reason to remove it that i saw…give me one maybe?
I really have no respect for Ghostcrawler, he seems like a big you know what to me. I say this because of how he goes about doing things. Such as removing our mini range and then going out to say, oh whoops we don’t want hunters to be able to do that, and yet a warrior will almost always beat us in a one on one deal because they can close with us more then we can get away form them.
Case in point; Volley being the same as multi-shot made me LOL out loud. Really I never once saw the two as the same. The only time I ever used Volley on a pack of mobs was when there was at least 5 or more. If there was 3 or less, I would use MD+multi-shot to drop threat on the tank quick.
I had often when soloing, going up against 3-4 mobs at once in BM spec would use multi-shot as part of my rotation, why not, sure it doesn’t do that much damage but its hell it was better then spam steady shot all damn day. I even use it when MM, same deal, if there is 2-4 targets I will use multi-shot and almost never use multi-shot. The latter 5+ volley comes to town and even would run in drop my taps and jump out and start to volley to add more AoE.
The funny thing about this, they and I mean Blizzard complain about how we as the players used AoE for everything in Wrath, Who’s fault is that? it’s not our fault that Blizzard allow everyone to get the best gear in the game, sending us to heroics which by the time ToC was out we already where out gearing, just to keep us in there, so yeah people are going to want to blow threw the run a fast as they can to get those 2 frost badges and move on. So they AoE everything, it was faster, that is not our fault as players but Blizzard’s fault for designing wrath to work that way.
What I find funny is I see all the time Mages and Locks using their AoE on 2 or less targets. I’ve level a number of characters and I just shake my head when I see an undergeared tank pull a small group of 2 mobs and the mages and locks unload with their AoE on it. I never have yet to see a Hunter do this. Maybe we have more respect for our AoE then Mages and Locks who get theirs at like 20 and we get ours like god late in the game. All we have for a good chuck of our leveling in terms of AoE is our traps and multi-shot.
What I find funny too about Ghostcrawler is he just put his foot in his mouth. Did he not just say, that we don’t like skills that are the same where one becomes a little better, in case they believed that Volley and multi-shot was the same with Volley coming out a bit better, so they removed it. Silly when they give us Steady Shot early in beta and then give us Cobra Shot at 81 that replaces it. Also.. as Frost said and multi-shot is not an AoE and if they change it to be an AoE (in terms of what an AoE is) wouldn’t that just make it Volley then?
Again Blizzard.. AoE means you target a area and you deal damage in that area, All classes who have AoE work this way, Mages, Locks, Pally, Death Knights, Warriors, Druids, you target an area and you deal damage.
This is what I see happening, multi-shot ending up being just another targeting spell like it is now, where it hits X number (more then 3 likley up to 5) of targets and the animation for it will be the same as what multi-shot is now, it wont channel, you will just hit x targets for x damage, who knows maybe we’ll be able to spam it depending on how much focus it cost. My point is, still not an AoE, I could do the same thing by tab targeting and firing shots that way, at least I would feel like I’m doing something.
i dont see what is wrong with ppl running thru dungeons aoeing their way thru..its fun and ppl keep playing …u get the job done…when ur doing pve solo..single target shots always have been the best …and its fun also.. just cause i could aoe stuff didnt stop me from using my other shots….good god only knows how i would ever level up a hunter from level 1 now without volley …even doing random dungeons is gonna be a pain cause we will be seen as the lowest dps on the charts and since ppl already spam…*full on hunters* on trade every day..my heart sinks to think of the future and what hunters will turn into =(
Hmm… the multi shot+explosive trap combo sure reminds me of elemental shaman AoE with their magma totem and chain lightning… but I don’t really hear them complaining about it not working that badly.
True, volley was a nice ability to help us in melee, and with them having removed most of our melee abilities, it puts us in a tight spot in close-up fights. But I wouldn’t worry as of yet, it’s still just beta.
um..shamans can use chain lightning plus alot of other spells at close range including melee spells!…what u gonna do in naxx when ur shooting at range.and u drop a trap under ur feet…yet the mobs are like 40 yards away….kick it over to the mob? they gonna buff up our melee abilities?
The reason I’ll miss volley is due to solo farming purposes. Gather x group of mobs volley them till dead, collect loot, pass go, sell said loot on ah. I am curious how the new multiple shot will affect my solo farming.
yea i know..good luck running guild members thru wailing caverns or razor fen downs etc….now im kinda glad i didnt get the good mount on my hunter yet…i think she will be sleeping from now on in storage..QQ
well its good to hear that they “are” doing something with multi-shot to make it more “viable” for aoe. with the removal of volley, yes alot of farmers will be at a loss,and the new multi shot will make it harder to farm. either way i hope the bugs get worked out.
We’ve all seen those weddings where the guests shoot guns into the air and hope that the bullets don’t hit anyone. That’s what volley felt like to me … only that you would hope the bullets hit in our case. Now an ability where you can shoot off multiple bullets/arrows at multiple targets … that’s a hunter ability … in my opinion.
u hope ur volley would hit?? huh…what are u talking about…
volley has a clear mark on the ground of where it is gonna hit…i can tell u dont play a hunter …
I was completely surprised to find everyone freaking over this change. Perhaps it’s just me, but I’ve always LOATHED Volley. You talked about decision making, Frost – but Volley is far from that: What decision do we actually have to make? To use or not use Volley? In trash you simply: Volley -> Volley -> Volley -> Volley -> Volley -> Eye’s Bleed.
Volley has always felt maintenance-ey to me. I took the removal of it to mean that Blizzard realizes how terribly BORING Hunter AoE is, and is moving to fix things – to make them more interesting so that our decisions matter a little more. I think Volley is a terrible ability (for flavor reasons as well), and way overdue for some reworking.
That said – I do fear that hunters might not have an effective way to deal AoE damage in melee range after this removal – at least before I could still run friends through dungeons or kill a heard of Mammoth’s well enough. I just hope Multi-Shot’s change doesn’t remove this ability.
yea…and blizzard on a mage..or rain of fire on a warlock is sooooooooo exciting???
i love playing my hunter..and never found volley to be boring …no my eyes did not bleed…maybe im one of the few hunters out there that did alot of single shot CC and maybe used volley if i saw the mobs were grouped nicely to be dpsed down at that moment….removing volley is completely ridiculous unless they are replacing it with something better..or like u want…something more EXCITING lol…now hunters can look forward to being mowed down by that herd of mammoths lol ..instead of killing them..wooot
reworking ..and removing arent even on the same page in the dictionary…perhaps they could help out our dps instead of removing it?
well, heres hoping they dont make multi-shot conal. all we need is a hunter flamestrike + cone of cold.
@FocusShot
Uh… you do know what AoE stands for, right? It means Area of Effect. Not “targeted, channeled spell”. See, as an example of what else an AoE can be, Fan of Knives or Whirlwind or Divine Storm or… You get the idea.
Multi-shot, as it stands now, is a specialist shot. It’s a specialist shot because most of the niche it could occupy is owned by Volley. So, if they do it right… It stands to gain significantly.
Also @FocusShot
Uh… Cobra and Steady are meant to be a one or the other deal. The thing is, which one’s better depends on your spec.
@Saregos
Please read my post again, forgive me for the wall of text there. Maybe I just wasn’t clear about what I said? >> I do know what an AoE is and Mutli-Shot as it stands right now is not an AoE. I’m really sure thats what I said. I only was standing the idea behind what they might end up doing, seeing as they said they will be changing the shot to make up for just taking away Volley.
Yes its is just beta, just because its this way now, doesn’t mean come patch 4.0 it will be that way. For all we know, they could add the new “mutl-shot” see it not work and then turn around and give us a weak version of Volley or something. Who knows really, I’m upset with the change because their reason beyond taking Volley away I feel is not just.
“Volley and Multi-Shot felt to mucht he same.. Volley felt too like a magic shot and didn’t feel very Hunter like”
That is basically what they said as to why they removed it. Myself and a few others have said that they are not the same and even show examples as to why they aren’t. I dont mean to be rude, but try to read my post fully before you say I don’t know what somethig is, if I am wrong I will be the first one to state that I was wrong.
As for Cobra Shot, umm no. Its a magic shot (oh see what I mean) so its perfect for SV, being they made them now as Frost put it the Mage spec. (see a parttern here?) They have stated that they want BM to use Cobra Shot, that leaves MM and with out being able to see how much DPS we’re really doing in beta by some sort of recount to if Stready or Cobra does more dmg at 81 we do not know, but I see no reason why we wont just use it over Steady, but we don’t know what the numbers really will look like at 85, the cap is 83 right now. I personally don’t like the fact that both shots are the same in terms of being our regen for focus.
I really don’t like the idea of Steady or Cobra being a focus regen shot anyways, I think it would have been better to give us some aspect that was like Viper, you know give us x focus over time or after every auto shot we shoot off but lower the damge we do by 50% while we’re in that aspect, but thats another subject all together, I rather not get into.
I hope they give us a cone-like attack that dazes all the targets around us
Wow, volatile thread.
A) I agree with Akshrahl. Volley is boring and has been boring. It could never compete as an AOE anyhow.
B) Multi-shot could easily be upgraded into a cone attack, its like strafing on automatic really. Has a better flavor to me than a literal hail of bullets. I wish they’d talent tree a specialization for bows/X-bows (volley type classic) and gun specialization like a strafe (where you switch your gun to ‘auto’ and blast mobs in front of you in a cone shaped arc.)
C) GC is a mouth piece reporting from a yacht somewhere. He’s not implimenting the changes, he’s speaking to the latest build and giving us a echo from the builds up the road that we can’t see yet. Our feedback lets them correct future beta builds before they go to deep.
D) I think Blizz shook the “Multi-shot” tree and were hoping the hunter community would give them a direction after the fully realized demise of Volley. You want to help us/blizz/GC out? Go out and tell Blizz on the forums how Multi-shot needs to behave in a way that sparks the imagination, is class appropriate, and can be balanced.
Inside minimum range (Lich King) and out of Line of Sight (Wintergrasp) are strong situational uses for the current Volley. Those I will miss. Slightly concerned about losing targeted AoE for stealthers, but… they could easily boost Flare or Track Hidden to compensate.
Combining the new Pet Stay and Kill Command may be our new answer to LoS – tell your pet to go out near the target, then target them and hit KC. Limited focus regen without LoS for Cobra/Steady, but a few strong hits could flush out the target…
Assuming that traps and Multi-shot are strongly designed, I believe we could retain reasonable AoE while losing Volley. Perhaps Multi-shot will be a slow-cast ability that fires an autoshot at every target in a 120-degree frontal cone. Can any current class AoE targets that are widely spread around the battlefield?* Deathwhisper’s adds would be a great place for this.
*Boomkins and Starfall are the only one that comes to mind… and we can MD.
Meh, sounds like it’s just going to be a bit more challenging and niche-based in Cata. As long as Frostheim has our backs in beta, I feel good about things
I’ve played the hunter class since early in vanilla and have adapted fairly well to changes across all specs since then. Personally, I’m really happy that Volley is being pulled. I feel that the successful hunter is a hands-on tactician that needs to plan his shots with a certain amount of rhythm. A channelled shot like Volley always felt a little out of place for me; a little too easy and mage-like.
In the Hunting Party podcast an idea had been suggested to build on the new enlarged stables by giving pet families a larger variety of buffs, thus increasing hunters’ situational utility in groups. I think the shift to Multi-Shot as the go-to AoE ability will work on a similar premise. Replace an arbitrary area attack with a more deliberate mutli-target one.
Of course, Ghostcrawler did mention it will not be the Multi-shot we know and avoid. It will most likely effect more than the current three targets or else deal collateral damage to nearby enemies. And lets not forget that the new variety of Arrow Traps will give us more control and distance on AoE damage placement. Combine a few of these with an improved Mutli-shot and Volley will be a thing of the past. I say good ridance!
explain to me how u are gonna kill mobs at ur feet in melee range? u ever gonna play in stratholme or naxx again..? how about the new ppl joining wow…most old content is aoe based survival…the new changes seem to be making WoW an awful clone of EQ2…omg…where dungeons were so controlled in how everyone had to do things..ppl just gave up and left the game…
One of the other reasons bliz wanted to remove it was because they wanted to free up our bars? It’s one button… What about trap launcher? We currently have Imo, Explosion, Freeze, Frost and Snake trap. With their trap launcher idea, there will now be 5 more buttons!?! Launch Imo, Launch Explosion, Launch Freeze, Launch Frost and Launch Snake trap.
Can you imagine if they took away blizzard and said to Mages, we think that its odd that fire and arcane mages can cast the spell blizzard, so Fire blast, Cone of cold and arcane explosion will now be your retrospective aoe abilities. You’ll will have more free buttons that way !
I am becoming a little more disturbed by the reasoning behind it all.
/sigh
believe me…our action bars have nothing to do with it lol
besides…if u use addons…ur bars are totally controllabe and editable…
i remember the good old days when i saw my first hunter..and first mage …they did their aoe spells…and i was in awe! wow…how pretty..and i was pulled in and couldnt wait to level a hunter and mage to do the same thing…it wasnt the single shots that got my attention…!
I better get my damn money back for training it. >.<
I’m glad it’s gone. Volley was lame.
Im new to the Union, I trained in MM and it was lame to me, I duel spec BM and SV, my DPS and Gs dont change the way I play, my Spirit wolf, named after my cat Buddy is a bad@$$. point being, why do I need volley if I have a pet and too many traps to macro? I dont want to out DPS a Mage or Lok, not with AOEs. its not right, I do want my pet to fuuu everything up and me and you be safe! give my pet an AOE
What, you mean like how they made it so that all mount speed increasing items wouldn’t work above 70 so they could implement a cool new system because “it’s lame to get stuck in combat with mount trinkets.” And then after endless months of no news on a cool new mount speed system, they suddenly posted, “You were going too fast. In the grand scheme of things, we shouldn’t have made 280s and 310s. Never coming back.”
As others have commented, the notion that volley and multishot occupied the same niche is absurd, unless something had changed significantly on beta that I don’t know about. For the other five+ years of WoW, they’ve functioned completely differently and good hunters used them in wildly different situations. WotLK spent an undue amount of time equalizing AE damage (volley, fok, divine wrath, hurricane and starfall, etc.) so to yank the rug on hunters and just hunters seems silly.
My hope for multishot v2.0 is that it works something like a targeted fok that does an AE emanating from your current target instead of the rogue’s which emanates from himself. Here’s hoping.
I can see the logic in removing volley, it is a bit of a daffy spell really. Yes its a fantasy world but really hunters shouldn’t be standing still conjuring hundreds of arrows out of thin air to rain down like confetti. As many have noted thats dull and if I wanted to channel AoE spells, I’d put on a frock or chicken suit and play another class.
Now having a clever dwarf or sneaky goblin stuff a stick of ACME dynamite in his Blunderbuss to shoot into a crowd of trash kinda makes more sense. Instead of fiddling with multi-shot maybe making explosive shot baseline and having it hit everyone in melee range of the primary target is the way to go. With its cooldown you could weave it in between multi-shots for some decent damage. Its not a blizzard or a rain of fire but its fun and keeps us mobile. And yes SV would have to share its best toy with the rest of us but maybe they could get a holy shot instead, like those dwarves that hang out NW of Southshore. This would give ‘em the unique status of being able to dish out all types of ‘elemental’ damage which kinda fits their specialism.
volley is a *daffy * spell??
lol..it was the only aoe we had….yes i would love a new spell that we could target at one mob…and it explodes in a radius …’like volley’ but shot differently…
u seem to like running around…i guess in raids where u have to stand in one spot u need to take a valium pill to control urself?
What scares me is that to me Blizzard seem to be saying “It’s OK if we nerf your AoE abilities because when playing the Cataclysm expansion you are not going to rely on them so heavily”.
I don’t intend to play only Cataclysm content following release in the same way that I don’t play only Wrath content now.
I am all for removing duplicate abilities as long as the ability itself is not removed by the process.
i agree!!! i love the game already…am i supposed to leave all the other zones and head into cata with my level 20′s??
I know GC said multishot is going to be redesigned. But I dont understand how he could say Volley and Multishot were very similar AoE spells.
1) Multishot isnt AoE, it is ranged cleave.
2) Multishot is on rather long cooldown (as opposed to Volley)
3) You cant affect the Area of Effect of Multishot in any way (as opposed to Volley)
4) You must have minimal range (as opposed to Volley)
5) Target needs to be in front of you (as opposed to Volley)
6) It is a CC breaker – if you freeze trap a target that AFTER you entered combat, then retarget and use Mutlishot, the freezed target will get hit.
7) and of course it could only hit up to 3 target (whereas Volley was used on 3 target as a minimum if you didnt care about mana)
I would like to see Multishot to hit a target + all targets in X yards radius (with an overall damage cap), leave a bleed DoT on them and be on cooldown. Balance the focus cost of the spell around the length of the Dot. SV might have some way to make the bleed actually be poison (include it into Toxicology talent?) – but that might just feel a bit OP?
Hi, my name is Hulder and I use multi-shot.
There, I said it! Forgive me but it IS part of the SV rotation so I’m a bit surprised that “nobody” uses it. Or did you guys mean, in a raiding environment as MM? In that case, apologies, I just misunderstood
Well, I’m SV and my priorities are, in this order, Kill Shot, Explosive Shot, Black Arrow, keep Serpent Sting up, and then either Aimed Shot (single target) or Multishot (more than 1 target). Then Steady Shot.
Volley is, as many have pointed out, another mug of ale altogether. It’s an AoE, it’s used on its own, while Multishot is part of my normal rotation.
*pulls out a soapbox and clims onto it*
Allow me to divert from the topic at hand for a second. I’ve long had a gnawing suspicion that Blizzard loves rogues, more than any other class. So I find it interesting that in a discussion about Volley, a HUNTER ability, Ghostcrawler uses this reasoning…..”We don’t consider easily breaking rogues out of stealth a good reason to keep Volley around.”
Well then Mr. Ghostcrawler, what SHOULD we use? Flare? Yeah, that works…
Track Hidden? It’s a joke and you know it.
And if Volley is too much like a magical spell, then why not remove Fan of Knives? (A rogue wielding 2 axes can….throw a crapload of daggers that came from where???)
Which leads me to another gripe, the minimum range. WHY are hunters the only ranged class with a minimum range. And please, don’t tell me that the legendary “dead zone” has been removed, I know from experience that it’s still very much alive. Every other ranged class can be right in your face and still cast spells, so why screw hunters by giving us a minimum range?
*puts his sopabox away*
omg ty ty ..u said exactly what i wanted to say!!!! like i keep saying ..they must hate hunters…cause yes..we cant shoot our bows…at ..close range…omg…its magic!!!!! …yet..yes rogues can shoot knives …not that i want them to nerf any other classes…geesh lol
His statement:
“The Volley and Multi-Shot niches were very similar, which resulted in the latter being dead. ”
Is of course horse-dump. They are not even remotely similar and have never been. They have therefore also been used in wildely different situations. That there are some rare cases, where a hunter can actually use both is true, but these are the exceptions, not basic usage.
Multi-shot gas gotten less usefull in Wrath compared to BC (e.g. PvP tier bonusses in BC), while volley is now overpowered. So that they do something I get and won’t regret. But don’t state obvious nonsense.
Now, of course if they remove both spells and introduce a newer better that replaces both, I’m fine with that. And, they are even allowed to call it ‘multi shot’ to keep face
@Huldar
DITTO!
Im an SV hunter and it is definitely a part of my rotation as well.
@Huldar: I definitely use Multi-shot as part of my SV rotation, but it becomes more of a novelty when clearing trash as MM (which is my main raiding spec). Having said that, I love the concept and feel of Multi-shot. No matter where you stand on the debate you have to admit it’s a badass shot. It just needs some more oomph! behind it.
@SpiritBinder: The point about removing Volley to clean up the toolbar is valid, but secondary to the Blizzard’s idea. This thread has a ton of reasons why Volley is superfluous to the hunter rotation. As for the interface cleanup…we’ve already seen how Blizz handled the active stable selection (via a vertically expanding pet list). I wouldn’t be surprised if a similar approach was used for traps. As an example, maybe you could have 3 dynamic buttons one for each type of trap (fire, ice, poison) and once locked in the toolbar you can right-click to select either a single target, AoE, or arrow shot trap. This would turn 9 spells into 3 buttons on the toolbar while giving access to them all with a click.
@Armin et al.: I find that alot of the discussion and objections to GC’s statement are more based on semantics than anything else. In essence it sounds like they are removing both spells and adding a brand new one. They’ve only chosen the name and feel of the old Multi-shot because it fits better within the hunter’s gameplay style, but it’s not today’s Multi-shot. Having said that I completely trust that it will have an AoE component even though it doesn’t today. “There can be only one!!!”
As I relentlessly used Volley last night to clear trash, I thought “Boy, I’ll miss this. I can watch the game, tell my 7 year old to take over while I get a beer, keep wife aggro to a minimum, etc.”
I have thought that maybe the use of the trap launcher was supposed to be major replacement, but the issues with traps are that you have to have a mob hit it, it isn’t as easy to see the area you will affect and you can’t turn it off until it dies naturally. Granted, these will change our behaviors and we will learn to work with or around them. I also thought this might make SV preferable for certain raid uses versus MM.
I only use the triple shot for just that, three mobs. Now I get to my point:
Last night we were trekking our way to Dreamwalker. As we began to run the gauntlet, I was single targeting the huntresses (name escapes me). I always stay clear of my fish-in-the barrel comrades who like to group up in order to evade Volley! Now I always thought it was funny that this Volley looks and sounds way different from ours, but it is a cool effect not unlike a line of archers. I would not mind it if multi-shot was like this ability. It is somewhat targetable, has a limited duration and is a tighter hit area.
You make a good point Kylaella. I would hate to lose AoE altogether, but a more controlled, tighter attack would be preferred. The current trap system does need a rework to overcome the “lay and pray” placement method. Why not remove (or drastically reduce) trap cooldowns? Place one and replace it when you want.
Imagine you have a group of mobs aggro’d on the tank. Shoot/place three trap between you and the group. Then shoot them with a Multi-shot that works similar to Aimed Shot (reduces healing done to those 3 targets by 50% for X seconds). When debuff wears off it casts an AoE in a 5 yard radius around each of the 3 targets for a short time. If any of the mobs decides they’d rather eat you for supper, they get caught in the mine field of traps you’ve placed between them and you; giving you some room to increase the distance to run and gun.
In a PvP group clash scenario where the hunter is doing support damage you can repeat tactic, but instead shoot traps behind the group to slow down anyone who retreats. This trap/AoE combo would scale in effectiveness with effort/skills, which leaves room for both lazy and proactive hunter playstyles. Just a thought.
Multi shot was situational
In TOC multi shot snowbolds the demons which spawned also used it on the valks and even sometimes on anub and an add
In ICC multi i use on bonespikes rotation on deathwhisper I go on the side with the 2 adherants and multi them and sometime i clip deathwhisper on the blood beasts when they spawn on suarafang I use multi instead of aimed shot
putricide again multi on the ooze and putricde when they are close the vile spirits and the frozen orbs when they are close together in the LK fight
multi shot had its uses especially if you had high arp and was attacking 2 targets one fully debuffed and sunderd on the move poping bonespikes avoiding flames
multi shot has quite a long cooldown..how are u spamming that??
volley has its place in other situations obviously…just the same as mages not using blizzard 100% of the time…how boring would that be lol…and useless also…but they still need it …sigh….
Kyeema, please, if you want others to read your opinion, write it so that others can actually read it…. Otherwise dont bother posting, please.
I love ghostcrawlers faulty reasoning, first he says “Its not hunterish” which brings many facepalm moments. Then he thinks Hunters deserve the AE spam nerf/removal. Keep in mind that Shaman, Mages, Warlocks, and Druids can AE spam their way into solid DPS numbers. Which makes me wonder if they plan on taking out Hurricane, but I digress.
Cute how he tries to work in how unusual it is to like a power that looks cool and that happens to be an AE for hunters. As if no hunter used Volley ever. I for one used volley heavily when I got it, and nuked many mobs questing and running dungeons. The way I see it, multi shot wasn’t doing as much dmg as they wanted, and now they “fixed” it.
A horrible decision as they couldn’t just rework the power ala Cleave and Devastate. Instead they act like children and remove it. Then again they still haven’t fixed feral druids and elemental shamans so I’m not surprised. Good going Blizz, I’m guessing this the one of the many reasons people will leave.
yep…i agree on the leaving part…even tho WoW is my home and i will be very sad to leave…
I for one am not defending a company because I play their game, I’m posting how I and many other silent players feel. Frankly, Blizzard dropped the ball twice with Hunters, first making them use focus(making them less flexible) and now removing volley. And while many will defend their decision, it just doesn’t make sense dps and AE wise.
I can post tons of youtube videos of hunters effectively using volley, so I can’t really see how it was right to remove it. Especially when one ability is on a CD (Multi-) and one isn’t. I’m not even going to mention thematic, when nearly every class in the game has a mismatch power (Warlocks – Underwater Breathing).