Just an interesting little blue post tidbit:
The only specs we really failed on in LK raiding were Frost mage, Subtlety rogue, BM hunter and Arms warrior.
We’ve seen Blizzard comment on the poor raid performance of all four of these specs before, but never put so bluntly. Back when I was going through two months worth of World of Logs raid parses to determine average dps per spec, it was these four specs that leapt out as crazily under-represented, as well as grossly underperforming.
So while it sucks that BM had to languish for most of an expansion back in its sad vanilla raiding state, it is certainly heartening to know to that Blizzard is aware of the problem — at least this way we know it’s on their radar and can hope for good things from BM in Cataclysm.
Wow…I cannot wait to see the hunter rage from the BM camp over that bluepost.
We at least blizzard is being honest and the future looks hopefully for those 4 classes as I an sure they wont want that to happen again.
Agreed.
It seems pretty likely that they’ll put some extra effort into making the specs that they gave short shrift both competitive and fun in the future.
Agreed – it’s always heartening to see big companies admit mistakes. And it’s even more heartening to know that they’ll put some effort into fixing it.
I personally find it nice that only four out of thirty specs are nonviable. As the holder of a counterfeit GED in game design, I can attest with quite no authority that balancing that many different play styles isn’t easy.
So there.
I can only hope so, since my main (albeit only lvl 49) is a BM Hunter….
yes in the min/max, heroic lich king downing, hardcore community, BM failed. these are the same people who wont pug me as survival. that being said, i was in a 25toc gdkp where the 2nd highest dps of the carriers was a BM hunter, who i only beat just barely, granted this was only one instance, but lets be honest, how many BM hunters do u see?
Nothing says ‘bring me to a raid’ like my defining skill being Intimidation!
Err.
I maintain that BM needs a better defining skill.
@ Phobonox:
Actually there are 34 PvE specs (DK DPS/tanking trees, druid feral tank/dps tree)
@ Hellgore:
you have just verified what Blizzard said. You just named 1 example from WotLK where BM was second on DPS…. The only thing it says about that particular run is that the rest DPS was either incompetent, raiding with VERY low gear compared to him or simply they were other failed DPS specs.
And you also answered yourself. The reason you dont see BM raiding is exactly the fact that it is failed raiding spec. So no, not in the min/max, heroic LK, hardcore community but in general. Although it is the king of soloing specs.
I totally agree with Tzivya. Intimidation doesn’t even work on the things that really count whereas Aimed Shot for MM and Explosive Shot for SV are actual damaging attacks that you can use on all things. Just as I think Blizz got the signature starting ability for BM wrong (gief BRK goddammit) they should also have given MM Chimera Shot off the bat because as Frost pointed out MM don’t even use Aimed Shot in their standard rotation in beta Cata.
The only time I ever use Intimidation to any affect is in bgs. I do like the fact that BM will also have at least 2 CC abilites now that all hunters get Scatter Shot. So that’s Intimidation and Scatter Shot for BM, Silencing Shot and Scatter Shot for MM and Wyvern Sting and Scatter Shot for SV. Canna wait!
I don’t see hunters, mages (and to a degree warlocks) and rogues having only two competetive pve specs as that much of a problem. Sure it would be nice to have all three, but the more hardcore raiders will view a spec that is just 1% behind as not competitive and I guess being that close is quite difficult to achieve.
Warriors having to spec fury to do damage in raids is the real failure.
My older hunter was BM in BC which I didn’t like very much but felt I had to do because of the higher damage. Now my two hunters are marksmen and I’m a happy puppy
It would be very nice if Blizzard can pull it of that all damage trees of all classes are competitive, but I doubt they can do it.
Yay for buffing BM hunters for rading and nerfing them for soloing! Rejoice everyone!
NOT.
I am personally rather afraid of their new desing – make every spec raid viable regardless of consequences. I love Frost pvp, Arms pvp and BM soloing and certainly don’t plan to raid with them. Maybe I am along with this opinion, but I would be willing to guess I am not.
For pure dps classes – if they will make every spec the same in the end, what’s the point of 3 specs? Just to make you push buttons with different names and pictures?
I would like to seem more differentiation between specs and their utility – at least for pure dps classes. Since we are already at disadvantage – you can call it low ‘gear cap’ – you will get 1 set of gear and you are done. Hybrids can gear off-spec or off-off-spec and get greater versatility and try more things. While with the future as (at least at the moment) I see it pure dps classes will be even more shallow and streamlined…
Gah, wtb edit function to correct mistakes
Admitting to failing Wrath raiding on those specs is not equal to saying they will make them better for raiding in Cataclysm. It is a bluntly honesty statement acknowledging those specs were not successful raiding specs, which is refreshing to see but I don’t get the impression that it means those specs will be successful raiding specs in the future.
Also, I tend to think that not all specs need to be raid-worthy, and I see nothing wrong with having specs better suited to leveling or PvP over raiding, but that is a minority opinion.
Arms Warriors aren’t fail! They’re such a freaking pail in arenas. Actually they’re kind of the opposite version of us. They seem to have as many ways to get in your face as we have ways to get away from them. Only reason I can beat them is from the Loinclothz episode of hunterpartypodcast.
oh wow… pail = pain…
When I read this I almost thought about pointin it out, then I realized you would most definitely notice this one
This is probably the best news that any BM lover could ever hope for, this means that Blizz wants to make BM competetive again with MM and SV.
Valancia, I think the hope is the mother of the thought. That Blizzard is aware of something doesn’t mean they are going to fix it!
They were aware almost 1,5 years ago that our pets didn’t scale. (One of the reasons BM fell behind after the great Q1 2009 nerf). Did they fix it during this time?
Note, I’m not being cynical here. Just realistic. The game is too complex and Blizzard developers just cannot (note I’m not saying ‘won’t') give enough time to make all balanced.
So don’t expect Cata to be different. There will be specs of classes that will be underperforming. The good news is that there will likely also be classes that will be overpowered and can be exploited (untill teh nerf comes
)
I dont think we will see underperforming DPS specs – you can just increase their damage through their mastery. Is MM underperforming? Ok, lets increase the rate of free shot proc for 18% to 20%. Or make it 90% weapon damage instead of 80%. Or make the mastery rating conversion ratio a bit different.
Maybe, there will be scaling issues, though. You never know what numbers that can be so much different (Agility at lvl 85 in dungeon gear vs Agility in Deathwing gear) can cause…
I played as a BM for 79 levels and loved every minute of it. Then the achieve for hitting 80 pops up and bye bye BM. *SADFACE* I’m dual specced so I can raid MM, but I rock out my BM tree when I want to parade around with my Big Red Spirit Beasts of DOOOM! It’s a shame that blizz gave us Spirit Beasts (which are AWESOME) but didn’t give us viable DPS to raid hardcore as BM. UFF DUH! I do my dailies and soloing stuff as BM though. Just because I can. lol
@Armin
You example is a good one. They knew then about the pet scaling issues and wanted to do something about it, that’s why we were all excited about the coming pet scaling fixes with our stats transferring to the pet. It was simply not doable in wrath because of the restrictions of the patch cycle.
Seeing that currently pets are woefully broken in Beta and Blizzard’s comments that there has been no pass on pets yet indicates that they are planning to make major changes to the pets in the future.
I for one am confident in them to make things a lot better, particularly since they were willing to come right out and call these spec a blatant failure rather than candy coating things. One of the main goals in cataclysm for them seems to be making it easier for them to initiate balance changes on the patch cycle as well, so this makes things even more hopeful that if something is broken on launch it won’t take the next xpac to get a fix.
I don’t think it necessarily means Activision wants to make BM competitive in raids again. Just that they know it is not. As someone else has pointed out they have Intimidation as the defining skill at level 10. This pretty much proves to me that the ones making those decisions do not play bm hunters to any degree. great skill, not the defining skill. Especially for a beginner. It actually takes some finesse to use properly at the right times. Like Aimed in MM tree it will lend itself to PvP more than PvE at that level.
As it stands now (insert obligatory “But it’s Beta” comment here) BM is looking like a leveling/PvP mind set is prevailing.
I’ve never been a fan of beast master hunters (always saw it as a lazy person’s spec), but I understand that there are those who are fans and they deserve to be able to raid as beat master is they so choose.
Ever since Blizz decided to nerf BM, not because it was overpowered, but because TOO MANY PEOPLE LIKED TO PLAY IT, I’ve been very cynical about any supposed plans to ever fix BM again. Actually, I’m quite cynical about Blizz and Hunters in general. Take the pet pathing issues that have continued to exist since before WotLK came out. All they really did with that was claim that they couldn’t reproduce the problem, then finally admit that they were aware of it, then… nothing.
I could be wrong of course, but at this point my cynicism is a win-win. The only way to prove I’m wrong is for them to give Hunters (and especially BM) their due; on the other hand, if we stay a sub-par spec, then at least I get to say “I told you so”.
The reason for the nerf to BM was actually, that you didn’t have to do any fancy shot rotation for your damage. Minimum effort resulted in more damage than the other hunter specs.
Today the MM “rotation” is not exactly rocket science either, but BM in BC was just one button.
It’s good they admit it. It’s bad they let it be for 2 years.
I’m currently running Heroic ICC (9/12 bosses down) with a BM and Survival Hunter consistently in raid with me. Its a joy to see all 3 specs in similar gear raiding because we get to see where we gain and lose. The BM hunter in question, Kiar, is NOT the lowest dps and we have high standards to get in guild.
I think we’ll see her raiding that spec until she pics up a few more heroic pieces, just the same as the Survival Hunter. A little variety goes a long way and the 3 hunters are consistently the better of the dps on fights like heroic Sindragosa (25man). We suck on LK however and yet my guild doesn’t forsake hunters on the fight. We play knowing that she could be doing superior dps but the mechanics kill us, not the dps (certainly not with a 30% damage buff, lol).
Know your strats, master your movement, rotation etc… a raid leader is hard pressed to kick you for a nonstandard spec, if you are a solid player who learns quick and has solid attendance. It should also be noted that our BM plays knowing that if the Raid Leader asks, she’ll make the spec switch in a heartbeat.
Good Luck BM hunters and please remember to burn your Big Red Kitty before Lady Deathwhisper beats us over the head with you when she uses the cooldown you did not.
@ Dorianchika
It’s admirable that the BM hunter in question is performing so well considering her gear isn’t nearly as good as yours or the SV hunter’s. Still way better than mine
Also interesting to see that she gems AP at those high gear lvls. I thought the general consensus was to gem agil at highest gear lvls for BM.
I’d also like to hear what dps she is putting out compared to you and the SV hunter. I recently dropped my BM spec completely in favour of SV pvp to try my hand at arena. I’m having loads of fun with it but I miss my shiny spirit beasts too much tbh. I don’t do much raiding with my SV pve spec besides helping out on ICC alt runs and VoA so I’m considering switching back again. I might do some testing this weekend as BM with AP gems and enchants to see what the difference is.
@Lirithiel
Kiar’s spec clearly hurts her dps by a variable amount. On a relatively standstill fight like Heroic Fester she sits within 1500 dps of Mr Sv and myself. When combined with random effects from ICC fights like vomiting, MC and Iceblocks its hard to tell the difference between the Survival Spec and myself. RNG factors like that make a big difference to distinguishing and you need to use recount to sort it out for number of shots and quality of hits.
For more factual info, I’d have to get permission to share info from World of Logs for our guild. Heck, I’ll ask Kiar to post on this thread if she feels like it. Hope it helps a bit.
Lirithiel. Actually a MM setup with a couple tweaks is pretty much ideal for BM. It’s been found that arp capping – even though it doesn’t give anything to your pet is actually more dps than gemming AP.
I’m curious though as to what kind of numbers she’s producing. I’ve just taken a step back from raiding but with the 30% buff it’s generally 2 of us MM sitting at 14/15k on Fester unless we’re unlucky with vomit. I was tempted to use a BM spec once we’d got to farm status but it just got too boring and we still occasionally struggle on Putri/Sind HM25 so I tended to not bother.
Just to be clear, I’m NOT a BM fanatic- I’ve raided ICC as 7/57/7 MM, hunting-party SV, hawk/FF SV, and high- arpen BM, and MM *definitely* has the highest dps potential. I play 7/57/7 MM the great majority of the time.
That said, I’m surprised to see blizz call BM a “failed” raiding spec. The theorycraft on high-arp BM is correct. Using a tweaked (slightly hunter-centric) dps spec and a wolf pet, arp-capped BM is perfectly capable of hitting at-or-near theorycrafted numbers and doing just as well, if not slightly better, than SV. Admittedly I’m not one of those guys posting 21k dps WoL numbers- I run low 16ks to low 17ks as MM in 264/277 gear on benign ICC fights (which is within theorycrafted tolerances for my gear, latency, and buff slate), so take my opinon with that in mind. But in any event, I play off-specs fairly frequently, and I’ve posted mid-to-high 15k’s as arp-capped BM. If that’s a “failed” raiding spec, I’m somewhat taken aback. Assuredly not as much damage potential as MM, but I don’t think it’s by any stretch “failed” like sub rogue or frost mage.
Let me follow that with a qualifier- BM has been comparable to SV in only 2 circumstances that I can think of since its glory days in Naxx- in late t9 content, when it took excellent advantage of the 4t9 bonus and the “stop and start” nature of some of the ToC fights to maximize TBW uptime, where it would perform slightly below HP SV, and in t10 content with 1390+ arpen, where it can be at least equivalent to (fight dependent) HP SV and I-hawk/FF SV. Further, there are some fights for which BM is grossly unsuited- Blood Queen comes immediately to mind, as does DBS (unless you diverge from the classic high-arp BM spec to pick up aimed shot; blood beasts ignore multishot nearly entirely.) You cannot just raid BM all the time and be effective; it’s only effective when correctly and judiciously applied. (I always raided it as a second PvE spec, so I could switch to MM or SV as circumstances required.) So perhaps I can see it as a “failed spec” for being so narrowly restricted.