[Update: fixed the explanation of the first quote : ) ]
There has been a bit of frenzy over the Volley loss, both over on the beta foums, and in comments here. Not even so much over the loss of volley, but over what Ghostcrawler had to say about it (and possibly a bit about their wonky implementation of the change, which I agree seems poorly done).
I’m concerned that a lot of the GC Volley rage stems from either misunderstanding something Ghostcrawler said, or from deliberately only reading the negative things and not reading any of the positive things. Let me highlight a couple quotes, that will hopefully make the situation look a bit better:
The Volley and Multi-Shot niches were very similar, which resulted in the latter being dead.
This I think is the statement that caused the most misunderstanding. Some people interpreted this to mean that Ghostcrawler thinks that multi-shot (or volley) is not currently used. This is not what he’s saying. He’s just saying that hunters have multiple tools to deal damage to multiple targets — multi-shot, explosive trap, and volley. The end result was that no one used multi-shot… in the beta. This discussion is all about the beta. (And actually, no one used it because it was worse damage than single-target shotting, and, you know, it’s not an aoe).
Why not kill multi-shot? Ghostcrawler also answered that:
We wanted to pick one and we though Multi-Shot felt more huntery and less “clunky”
Now don’t get me wrong, volley is far superior to multi-shot. Volley is, for example, an aoe. Multi-shot is not. And in the beta multi-shot’s damage blows taurens. However, don’t forget this:
We think Multi-Shot is a more interesting ability and can fill the hunter AE niche (along with Explosive Trap). We’ll have to change Multi-Shot from the current version to get it there.
They know that multi-shot is not a replacement for volley as it is right now. They will be changing it! Finally, some more words of reassurance:
When you do need to AE, hunters will have the tools to do so.
Now, it is entirely possible that their implementation of the multishot solution to aoe will suck. It absolutely could. It’s also possible that their solution will rock ass. Or be just right for the new Cataclysm gameplay.
But the point is, we don’t know.
All we know is they say they are aware that we need an aoe. They don’t want volley to bet that aoe. They know multishot is not currently that aoe. They are changing multishot and assure us that we’ll be able to aoe as needed.
If you assume that any change being made will suck even when you know nothing about it, either you’re just naturally a pessimist (in which case you really shouldn’t be posting your negative opinion everywhere – pessimists are wrong just as often as optimists, and that’s pretty often) or possibly you just have a very low opinion of Blizzard’s game design… in which case maybe you should switch games.
But if you’re one of the vast majority in the middle — you love wow and your hunter, and Blizzard sometimes gets it wrong and sometimes gets it right — but generally gets it right more than wrong and the game steadily improves over time — then just be sure not to skip over all the good things Ghostcrawler said. There’s plenty of it, and it addresses every concern.
I think that on that first blue post, the “latter being dead” means that no one uses Multi-shot in Wrath right now.
“The Volley and Multi-Shot niches were very similar, which resulted in the latter being dead.”
I think any misinterpretations of this statement result from people not understanding what the word “latter” means. It means the last named item in a list of two. If CG had meant that Volley was dead, he would have said “former,” which would mean the first named item in a list of two.
Therefore , GC’s statement actually means:
The Volley and Multi-Shot niches were very similar, which resulted in [Multi-shot] being dead.
/grammar lesson
And that is true — Multi-Shot was dead because Volley did better AoE damage. Apparently they are going to try and revive its use by making it better and eliminating Volley, which is fine by me.
That was a pretty good explanation. I hope it’ll help calm some of the people frothing at the mouth.
Better grab a few drinks from when the new version of Multi-Shot comes in, you don’t want to miss the Hunter QQ-Storm of the Millenium, Part II.
i for one welcome the change because i think its extermly bored using a channeled spell
blizzard will remodel multi-shit to something like a cone doing plus 150% weapon damage to all in the cone or hits and targets with in x many yards of target for 150% weapon damage
because of focus we could spam it 2 or 3 times very fast like rogues and FoK
so in all i really dont know why everyone is crying till we see the replacement at least
I think Frost expressed my concern in “Beta Dungeon Thoughts” as long as I’m able to meaningfully contribute to a fight, then I’m good.
I dunno – I’m still skeptical. There was nothing wrong with volley as an AoE – it’s comparable to what mages and boomkins have as an AoE, in terms of DPS. It wasn’t OP, it was very useful, and unlike traps, you can stop volley at any time. Why fix what isn’t broken? I’m not concerned about NOT having a comparable AoE in Cataclysm, I just don’t see the point in removing an already useful spell. If Multi-shot was broken, then fix that instead and leave volley alone! They both have their situational uses, and I used them both in Wrath.
I don’t necessarily disagree with Blizzard’s decision here, Volley did not feel hunter-like. More like a Mage ability with another animation. However, I do feel that (as a blue post did state) Multi-Shot in it’s current form is not a viable skill to fill our AoE niche and that it needs to be changed to make it so. My suggestion is that they lower the damage it does per target (talking from a Wrath perspective, not a Cata beta perspective) but up the number of targets. About five would be reasonable imo. Also lower CD. The point is that with the new focus system you can’t really continually spam Multi-Shot (probably) so it needs to do a lot of damage with one shot. Also, yes, Explosive Trap needs to be part of the new Hunter AoE rotation (although it already is part of mine for big packs). We just need something to do between the Multi-Shots other than wait for our focus to come back, or just SS>SS>SS>MS>SS>SS>SS>MS.
Just posting my view.
Or cone damage, that would be interesting…
The only reason they want us to use multi-shot is the two new spells they put in the MM and Surv trees that no one is taking or wants to take. This is the only way to make sure we take the spells they want us to take.
@Silvanos: You are correct, Volley wasn’t particularly “broken” in a strict mechanical sense; Blizzard’s decision isn’t being made because Volley was “too good”, but rather, because it just wasn’t good enough. It’s boring and uninspiring – Volley is the same basic AoE all the other popular AoE classes have. Volley just doesn’t fit into the mechanical or thematic feel of hunters. Multi-Shot, however, is iconic for Ranger/Hunter classes throughout fantasy games and literature. It makes sense that “shooting multiple arrows at once” would be our primary go-to multiple target ability.
It’s entirely possible they could have left Volley how it was, buffed Multi-Shot to deal much more damage and given it a reasonable cooldown, and then we’d possibly use all three: Launch Explosive Trap -> Multi-Shot -> Volley -> Volley -> and so on; however, if you can get the SAME general AoE DPS and remove those Volley’s, why not do it? It’ll free up our bars, and has the possibility of making our AoE rotation more interesting by forcing us to weave some shots in between Mult-Shots. Granted, this is assuming they redesign Multi-Shot well enough to achieve these goals, but I think it’s silly to assume they wont before they’ve shown us.
Volley simply isn’t that great or interesting of an ability. It really only synergizes with Misdirect – which may or may not be the case after MD is changed; otherwise, Volley is just a generic, basic, circular AoE ability. It’s not fun or interesting. Multi-Shot has the potential to be VERY fun and interesting. I don’t know about you, but I think that It always behooves us to improve upon the current status quo, even if the status quo isn’t “broken” =)
Funny I thought a lot of the concern with the loss of volley was the loss of utility that comes with it. If multi-shot can fill those other uses that we have for volley fine, if not I feel the class has gone backwards. Remeber its not all about burning down trash…but apperntly all the secondary uses we have for volley are unreasonable.
AoE? Pfft. I just want to know whether I can cast Multishot at *no* target so I can bring rogues/druids out of stealth. Flare just doesn’t cut it.
I would love a flare that sets off all the smoke bombs on the rogue…
I think that they are going to make multi-shot an AE that is more concentrated. That way they can make it more damaging, but not as widespread?
I had to suffer through a raider last night totally griping out another hunter that Volley sucks, so I am ready for something that balances us out if it gives us more damage.
I can see it now: the gun multi-shot is going to use the same animation as the bow multi-shot.
Who wants to bet?
Yeah, lol, that’s what I was thinking. Ideally, the gun graphic would fire off an anti-personnel dispersion. Sort of like a B-52 carpet bomb…
I’m probably the only NE who likes guns better and has a townhome in Ironforge just to be near to the brewery.
Call me a pessimist if you like, but I don’t see much good in what Ghostcrawler is saying. The bit about Volley overshadowing multishot is not true at all: if it was, no-one would be using multishot on Live either. It’s simly a matter of Multishot damage being very low on Beta.
There are some things that Volley does that multishot is unlikely to ever do, no matter how they change it. Volley can be used without a target and from within melee range. Giving those capabilities to Multishot will almost make it a clone of Volley, so I doubt it’s going to happen.
It still looks like they don’t want hunters to have a basic targeting circle, use-anywhere AoE. Considering our limitations in melee range, I’d rather not lose that.
Well put Frostheim. As a Belf hunter I think you’d make a great addition to the Horde if you ever decided to leave those dwarves in the mines where they belong.
One huge concern I have is with volley we could focus our aoe on a targeted area, however, historically when I have used multi shot in my rotations, it has at times aggro’d separate mobs which is generally filed under “Not Good” in my book. Say they do make multi as good as a dps as volley with or without fire traps but do not fix the error-prone (randomness?) I would have a hard time seeing this being an acceptable aoe for soloing, dungeons nor raids.
WTB GC’s Next post “GOOD NEWS EVERYONE! We’ve fixed multi-shot so it works just like Strafe with Knocback form diablo 2!”
well I can dream
The problem in potentially many (all?) of the heated discussions over ability changes in Cataclysm is that you don’t need to be in the test to see the changes and hear his commentary on them. So when GC says, “The Volley and Multi-Shot niches were very similar, which resulted in the latter being dead.” what he really means is “We took two functioning, effective spells with distinct roles in the live game and changed them dramatically in the current beta build. In the current beta, the niches were very similar and MS is unbalanced to such a degree that no one was using it. We like the mechanic of MS better for hunters than volley, so we’re going to remove the spell we like less and redesign MS to serve as the hunter’s go to choice for AOE damage.”
What he said was a vague, blanket statement that every hunter who pays attention to blue posts read. A lot of us compared that to our experience in the live game (since we have no other experience), and found that explanation at best lacking and at worst wrong. If he’d said what I said above, he’d have made his life (and ours) a lot easier.
I personally don’t have a problem with the way hunters are set up right now just give us a little more mana in the mana pool and there wouldn’t be a problem. plus the pet stats change will be a nice improvement. I still think they shouldn’t be fixing something that isn’t broken.
It’s not that I enjoy beating a dead horse, but since folks are quite passionate about this issue I’ll gladly continue adding my two cents to the penny jar.
In response to Vern, I have to disagree with framing future class changes in a broken/not broken context. The fact is that the specs are unbalanced. It’s pretty clear that as of right now the ultimate BM setup cannot compete damage-wise with SV and MM.
I started playing my hunter as a BM because it seemed logical to me. Unfortunately, not having a steady go-to guild for character development I’ve had to make some sacrifices to stay relevant in the wild west of PUGs. I played both SV and MM for a long time after and found MM to be the more natural choice for my style. But should I have had to make that choice?
Every spec should be balanced enough that the choice of experience is not sacrificed for the end goal of performance. Right now, that is the case and these changes are necessary in my opinion. Maybe one day – hopefully sooner than later – Blizzard will have achieved a system that scales with new content as opposed to having to be redesigned every so often. Trimming the fat off the talent system in Cataclysm looks like a step in the right direction.
Another recent post from Ghostcrawler “corrected” the Cat bug that took away minimum range restriction. With removal of Volley what are hunters supposed to do on fights with mechanics that force us to hug the target? Drop our keks and moony?
all i can say is whatever blizzard decides, we all have to live with it. end of story. i do like the idea of multi-shot and explosive trap and i also hate it. we will see at final beta changes and cata.
Thanks, Frost, for clearing up the misunderstanding about multi-shot being “dead”. Never occured to me that he could mean the Beta as it is now, I thought he was referring to live and went “huh?”
And of course I’m hoping they’re going to come up with a cool, uncommonly good looking and most of all kick-a** dps-ing version of multi-shot to make our memories of Volley fade very quickly
Random thoughts:
Arrow rain > arrow cleave.
Serpent Spread will make Multi-Shot OP, I guess. Or maybe will turn Multi-Shot into a kind of Pestilence.
GC comment ” having multiple AEs that competed with each other seems like a good area to hit up “” is wrong to most of us. Who thinks Multi is an aoe? So when he killed Volley, that left us with no AOE. But we all are waiting to see the changes to multi.
I wouldnt mind Multishot being a buff like rpd fire.
Ie you activate it & it lasts X seconds during which, depending on your mastery rating, you’ll pop off additional attacks but within a certain range – the mastery rating adding to how many additional arrows you fire
Assuming that any change being made will suck even when you know nothing about it, that’s a good philosophy. Because if I’m wrong, then I’ll be excited about the awesome new changes. On the other hand, if I “hope” they will do it right, and they screw it, then I’ll be very very disappointed.
Now if they had a problem with the volley being vertical and they think that making a horizontal AoE “feels more like a hunter” that’s OK. But that’s not gonna change the fact that you’re left doing almost the same thing from another plane of attack. On the other hand, if the volley is replaced by a combination of traps and multi-shots, that only means that hunters will have to do more jumping around to get their dps compared to the vertical or radial AoE dudes, which is kind of obnoxious.
My idea of a perfectly good for hunter AoE would be forget multi-shot and make a new shot, let’s call it Poisonous Blob, which you are deploying also like an AoE, it’s not channeled but it will do DoT to all the mobs in the area, while you can continue shooting. Of course, it will do less damage compared to a channeled spell, because you can still shoot. It’s not magic, it’s poison, so it’s nature, and hunters love nature…
If this NEW aoe we will be getting is more like volley as in it fills the aoe roll that the volley left vacant. And your saying multi shot wasn’t a true aoe
Then Blizz should have gotten rid of multi shot that no used and changed volley that we all used. The out come would have been the same but a lot less QQ and drama
I had a thought hit me last night and I think it might be what blizzard is intending for our AOE. We’re supposed to be getting a “Trap Launcher”to replace Freezing Arrow. From what I understand is that this ability will allow us to launch traps at range to mobs. Add that with our Explosive Trap and we have a new AOE ability that while it won’t make up for losing volley will fillin the gap hopefully till Blizzard fixes Multi Shot.
My concern with traps and the new trap launcher is that with more CC being required (supposedly, I’m not in the beta), and the trap launcher having a 1 minute cooldown, is that we will be forced to use our TL cooldown on a freezing trap, and have to trap dance if we want to drop explosive traps. As a pure dps class it should not be this much of a theoretical pain in the ass to do good AE dps, imo.
Ofc, with MS not changed yet, this may be a non-issue, b/c they may change it into the pinnacle of awesomesauce that Volley was…maybe.
Ghostcrawler on Multi-Shot:
—
Our current version of Multi-Shot has not target cap. It’s a little like Fan of Knives.
—
source:http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=26560569308&pageNo=1&sid=1
given the very limited amount of information and the wording: “Our current version” seems to indicate they are not sure yet if this will work out.
Of course they aren’t sure if it’ll work out yet. It’s beta. Testing is required.
I admit I am/was upset about them taking it out, but I am sure they will make up for it. It’s just human nature sometimes to resist change. And the way it was removed with no warning, didn’t give us any time to gradually accept the idea. Kind of like yanking the rug out from under someone, ya know? And I know the animation was messed up for guns, but in any case, I really liked standing there and making arrows rain out of the sky on multitudes of mobs! (esp Storm Peaks Mammoths…hehe). Really gonna miss that.
Taking out Volley is simply asinine! Volley is about the single most versatile tool a hunter has, while multi-shot merely occupies a niche.
Volley has no minimum range, which means that the hunter finally has something to use, when swarmed by mobs. If they want to remove this, they’d better remove the cooldown on traps and disengage as well.
Volley is often a much better tool than flare at bringing rogues, druids and various stealthed mobs out of stealth. Again, they are robbing us of an important tool that Multi Shot cannot replace – read about control below.
Volley is pure genious in e.g. Wintergrasp for getting at persons in hard-to-reach places. Why are they robbing us of yet another tool, that even fits perfectly with the way they envision a hunters role.
Volley is a controlled shot, meaning we can judge fairly easily which monsters we will hit, whereas Multi Shot is a brainless point-and-shoot ability where we can only hope that it will hit the three nearest mobs. If they increase the number of hits, that will mean a further loss of control and actually reduce the usability of the shot.
Agreed, we don’t know what changes they will come up with for Multi Shot, but based on what we know about the current mechanics of Multi Shot, then it will no longer bear much resemblance to the original, if it becomes even half as versatile and effective as Volley.
Quite frankly, I feel that hunters are being butt-fucked, without the courtesy of using any lubrication.
Whatever Blizzard is going to do I would like that they make a very workable replacement before they take one that for better or for worse gave hunter a needed aoe capability.
I hate the ideia of cripling the class on the base developer whim that sees an ability “unhunter like”.
begining of the end seriously blizz needs to stop f***ing shit up cataclysm is a waste of time and money it sucks