The Darker Side of Hunters

Posted: by Frostheim

A few weeks ago I was going through my characters doing a little house cleaning. Back in vanilla days I had a handful of alts that I tried and usually never made it to level 10. Part of this is because they weren’t hunters, and really, how could they add up? Part of it is that I despise leveling.

As I was cleaning out these alts, I discovered a priest alt that I forgot I had. Now I’ve always figured if I could stomach leveling just one alt to 80, I’d want it to be a priest. I love casting shield, and healing pets. So I played around with the alt a bit.

Then I discovered something interesting: while I hate leveling, I enjoy running dungeons just fine. Enter the dungeon finder, and all of the sudden I’m running a dungeon or three every couple of days on the baby priest when there’s nothing to do on my main. Don’t get me wrong, I highly doubt I’ll ever make it to 80 — I expect new content to come out before then, and then all of my attention will be on Frostheim. Or come beta time it’s hard to imagine spending any free wow-time outside of hunter stuff. But for the time being, I’m enjoying the occasional night of healing.

And this is where I’ve discovered the darker side of hunters. I’m used to thinking of hunters as the ultimate class that is the savior of everything wow. I was always delighted when a hunter came into my random dungeon group:  I’d buff him and the pet — if the pet got aggro I’d delightedly bubble the pet and keep him healed up. I was, if I do say so myself, the perfect healer.

Only the hunters were not perfect. Or good. Or average. I hate to say it, but down at those levels, hunters are kind of more likely than any other class to be horrible, horrible people. I mean not just horrible players, but horrible people. They are most likely to talk in half leet speak half some made up language. They pull aggro constantly, always. Often by attacking before the tank does. When they get aggro, they run away — they run around corner, out of LoS. They drag silencing mobs over me. They have time while running to yell in party chat for heals, however. And should they die they have plenty of time to cuss me out for it.

Is it feign death that makes hunters so cocky at those levels? So much more likely than any other class to attack before the tank gets there, secure in their knowledge that they can likely FD *just* before the mob reaches them (at which point decent odds it comes at me, the healer, by the way). Don’t get me wrong, down at those levels a LOT of dpsers have the horrible habit of running away when they get aggro, but hunters are guaranteed to do it. Every time.

Or is it just that you can be pretty certain that any low level hunter is an alt, and thus they aren’t true hunters, not in their hearts. So really, those are all just ret pallies and DKs that are raging asshats?

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  1. Hrist says:

    This is nothing new, unfortunately. I remember hating hunters while leveling up in Vanilla, BC and WotLK for the exact same reasons as well as the damned multi-shotting failboaters that loved to break CC back when it was actually useful. If a CC broke, you could be damned near certain it was a hunter.

    I guess it’s just the growing pains that most hunters go through! :P

  2. Arthemystia says:

    First, my only alt of note is also a Disc. priest (and is about to hit 80). Fun class. Not hunter-level awesome, obviously, but fun.

    Second, yes this is a problem. I find myself doling out advice in instances regularly with hunters. Some take it better than others. It makes me sad.

    Third, in the ultimate irony, back in BC levling I had to yell at a hunter for trying to pet tank an instance (despite having a regular tank) while I was healing. He was sure he could tank, but, well, he was doing it very wrong. I assured him I knew that he could, but that it would be easier if he did not. I half expected him to refer me to the WHU, which would have been even funnier.

  3. Ilapa (Darkspear EU) says:

    man i agree so much – lvlling a lil firemage and hunters omg – i’ve called a few out for having growl on pet,pulling mobs. when the tank is nowhere near enough to get aggro – when they moan back i inform them my mains a hunter and they’re behaving like idiots.

    And Hrist – I miss having to CC :(

  4. Ryuki says:

    I enjoy playing different classes, because it can get very boring some days and in a way, it allows me to understand what other classes can do. That said, I must say that lower levels in the dungeon finder can be down right a nightmare. I’ve play a number of classes on both sides and almost always run into someone who will attack before the tank, tanks who like to leave half way in the dungeon in the middle of a pull (how they do that I don’t know), or healers who wait until the tank is almost dead before they pop a heal on him. I’ve even had to wait in the dungeon finder for over 45 mins only to have someone go “Man not this one again..” and they leave, causing us to wait another 10-30mins to the point people go whatever and leave.

    These people IMO are people who have level 80s, are lazy and think they are gods. I say gods, because in the world of wow, at level 80, you can solo any classic content easy. On my hunter, I can pull a mob before the tank, using my pet and down the thing before it gets to me. I have the tools to do that, at level 22 you don’t and that is where the problem comes. That and some people are just jerks.

    But good luck with the priest, they are fun for something to mess around, I give my respect to those who level priest to 80, very hard class to level outside the dungeon finder.

  5. Ziñðoth - TN says:

    I have a Shadow Priest and a Holy Pally alt, and I can say the same. I am constantly in a situation with a hunter at lower levels where i am trying to coach them on proper behavior. It seems in my opinion that the same “internal mechanic” that makes these people act the way they do is the same one that makes people believe once they hit 80 that they dont have to learn to do anything because they are 80 and can do what they want. IE. – not killing frost orbs because they assume someone else will do it, – Not moving out of fire/void because its the healers “job” to keep them up, – or just in general not knowing what they are SUPPOSED to do in any given situation. They breeze through gearing, skipping over the lower echelons, and then jump into raids they have no business doing. Its a very similar mentality, thinking they can do whatever they want instead of whats good for the party/raid. They should all be castrated.

  6. Awesome Mom says:

    I decided to dip my toe into the healing side of things and it has been a tough go. The dungeon finder while great for getting a group has also almost made me want to swear off healing forever with my priest. The dumb things I have been seeing and the long waits for the dungeons I am willing to do have been maddening. I too have had to school a lot of huntards. I just decided to get her to the outlands while questing as shadow and then give healing another try.

  7. Littlebear (Stonemaul) says:

    Here is a thought:

    I remember when I was leveling, and there simply wasnt the information out there that there is today. As I hunter, I soloed most of my way to 70, fumbling through, and learning as I went along. Eventually, another hunter saw me, wearing my Pauldrons of Surging Mana, and helped me out with some advice. (To get a grip on how noob I was, he was the person who explained macros to me. Imagine leveling to 70 WITHOUT MACROS. please don’t ever say I didn’t pay dues.)

    I’ve always had the thought that a lot of these “baddies” are simply uneducated.

    That may however, be delusional wishful thinking. A lot of these people simply don’t care to learn how to play better. The Huntard, unfortunately, is alive and well.

  8. Thorgalas says:

    Frost, I find this to be true almost all of the time. I pretty much dont run many Vanilla/BC instances on my alts unless I’m running with guildes. I’ve had too many bad experiences/nightmares to count. Most hunters I’ve run into leveling seem to bring more huntard than hunter. From putting pets on aggressiv,e leaving growl, on or pulling aggro. I try to share my knowledge as much as I can some listen and some dont and continue to be huntarted.

  9. Rades says:

    I always feel exactly the same when I’m dungeon-running on my priest. Oooh a hunter! Delight! What pet do they have? What spec are they? Is that….Hellreaver? Oh my. Oh and I see they’re using the mystical 0/0/70 spec. (not a typo…0/0/70, at 80)…wonderful. Sigh.

    It really does just kill a hunter’s soul sometimes.

  10. piexelsofdoom says:

    this is so funny, im leveling a priest too and like it and my hunter friend that got me started in wow i found out is working on a priest alt too, what is it about them that us hunters like?

  11. Bozanimal says:

    The biggest problem with the RDF is that most leveling players treat it like a heroic, when old-world instances (at least Zul-Farrak through pre-BC 60’s instances) require LoS pulls, crowd-control, and mob management.

    On both my healer (40) and tank (51) I have always found the hunter to be the most problematic of any given group when it comes to pulling additional mobs, pulling too soon, pulling threat, and generally being a tool.

    I vote-kicked a particularly bad hunter that had pulled three groups that required my healer to blow every cooldown, run out of mana and potions (this is full heirloom gear and blues). When I sat to drink he pulled before the tank again and you know what the rest of the group said when I initiated a vote?

    “Why kick him? He has the highest DPS.”

  12. Ryuki says:

    Yeah I’ve had the “Why kick him hes the highest DPS” comment before on a vote kick on someone. I always say, I don’t care if hes doing level 80 DPS.. if he gets us killed we’re not getting exp and we’re not getting loot. In the case of a bad player, like a lock who uses his void walker and not his Imp or a mage who likes to AOE on one mob… or tanks who are scared to pull more then one mob at a time. I always tell them, they should try this. See if it works, in the case of hunters I always break out laughing when they go “Wait I’m out of mana” and they stop, seat and drink.. and mind you this is level 20+.

  13. Siggrid (Nagrand EU) says:

    It seems to me that at low levels, most players are of this sort. In Heroics most group members I find are polite at the very least, even if English isn’t their main language (lots of dutch speakers on EU servers), but at low levels, everyone is concerned with lewts and nothing else, with very few exceptions.

  14. Saelle says:

    I run into the same sort of thing all the time.

    One thing I wish is that the on the WoW Interface-Combat settings is that Auto Attack/Auto Shot were defaulted to off or not available until max level. Most low level hunters don’t know it can be turned off and I’ve seen many hunters range pull by accidentally right-clicking on a mob. Unfortunately it isn’t only low levels that do this. Last week I was in PUG where another hunter accidentally right-click pulled Marrowgar as we entered the room. He definitely was not a dues paying hunter.

    I swear that one thing is half of the reason for the hunter class’ bad reputation.

  15. steelhunt says:

    You think you know, but you have no ideea… If you think playing a healer with hunters is hard… try tanking. That’s what I did, after leveling a hunter as my first toon… Once a hunter, always a hunter… ya right. I am not out of Scarlet Monastery yet, and I already hate hunters… with a passion. They are all over the place, their pets are all over the place, always running ahead of me, pulling ahead of me, always shooting at the caster mobs I’m LOSing, always have to ask 10 times in a run for growl to be turned off, always… You have no ideea…

  16. Splatus says:

    So funny and true. Been focusing completely on my hunter and recently dug out my baby druid to run dungeons (feral). Man, did I see hunters screw up. Tanking pets on aggro, pets not engaged at all, distracting shots fired etc.

    I think hunters *are* the easiest class to play well but fairly hard to master. Hence you get a loot of noobs rolling hunters. After all, thats why I did it in 2006…

    However, whereas the old raiding system filtered out these guys or trained them up, the badge system allows them to stay their course until well into ICC. I saw 2 hunters in Dalaran in epic gear with Berserking on their 1h weapons swearing that it would work. Thanks Frost, btw, for the mail and clearing that up…

  17. Alihandra says:

    I’ve tried to give advice before, be nice and be the better hunter and step up to try and lend new folks a hand. I think the comment that stopped that was “What do you know you’re a shaman?” They are horrid sometimes, often requiring the most healing and management. I’ve been running with Frost’s mini-priest for a while and if we were in the same room when a hunter shows up in the run I’m sure we’d both look at each other with that ‘well this is going to go to hell’ look and prepare to be amazed at the evil that is our new hunter buddy.

    I don’t care how much DPS you do in a group… if your pet is wild, I’m throwing chain heals off of you because you are near the tank in melee, and you’re asking every pull for a recount report…. I might just let you die. Good lessons I learned involved a lot of floor hugging and coaching but as the new kids don’t want good advice… they can kiss floor.

  18. orjeager says:

    i just gave up, in 5man, i cant just hold my self any more, i give tank 1-2s free aggro time, if he can hold it until trash is dead, than we have a winner here! :) that is type of tanks i like, they know what to do and for how long to do it. keeping the same pace during whole 5man instance with out a stop.

    but if they cant :(
    omg, MD, FD, disengage, deterance, readiness, all tricks i have, do not help, so i end up using viper for whole run, just to keep my aggro at bay :(

    but that is rare, like hunting for frostbitten achi. i love to run with my guildy pala alt, that is use to my doing it my way :)
    “if trash is at 30k hp, no reason to taunt it, let hunter has it fun”, that is what my regular 5man tank thinks :)
    he usually say to every random / guild healer, if he gets aggro, and get hit, let him die if he cant handle it, it is his own fault, let him run if he dies :)
    and tbh, i like it, i bloody love it, it is keeping me on the edge, i dont get to slack at any given time, and gives me huge responsibility to do what i need to do, when it is needed, not just because i can. and if i fail at CC mobs i pull, there is no tank to help me, and yeah, if i use FD in any time when i play guildy i pay 100g per use :) so rules are simple, kill it or die by it :) it is what we use to keep our 5man run more fun, but raid, well that is different story time :)

  19. steelhunt says:

    To continue my post above… I loved my hunter toon, and my white bear, as I ran from one corner of the world to another, farming, soloing group quests, offtanking instances (and maintanking, and getting mobs off the healer… ). I loved every minute of it, of having my own tank, my own heals, owning everything. I had dreams of vampire/blood stings that would heal the pet (like BC tier gear), of pet crit imune talents, of “ferocious aspect” threat stances like righteous fury, of cool second pet abilities, of magical ammo, of…

    But after tanking dungeons with hunters… I’m starting to dream of giant hunter nerfs… Yes, nerfs, and mainly at our beloved tenacity side, because that’s where huntards are created. They just don’t care, don’t give a damn… because this design forgives 90% of all mistakes, stupidity, idiocy. It never teaches them to pay attention to what others are doing, what others need to do, what the tank needs to do, what the healer needs to do… Tenacity is truly OP at the moment, and it breeds the worst possible atitude and behaviour (at least before 55… )

    Yes, a giant nerf to the tenacity side – maybe it can teach them better lessons… It will be the end of gorilladins, of chain pulling 10 vrykuls at once, of fast leveling, of glorious Molten Core soloing… but it may also be the end of huntards, and of neverending pug fear and pain for the other classes in the game (and of broken hearts and dispair among the good hunters in the game ). Currenlty I’m torn… Would you pay that price, Frost? Can you let go? I need some spiritual guidance here…

  20. Frostheim says:

    Heck no.

    I disagree that tenacity is the problem. In all honesty, if a tank can’t hold aggro against a pet growl (assuming the tank got their first, of course) then the tank has threat problems. Growl doesn’t cause all that much threat.

    I think the real culprit is Feign Death. That’s what I see anyway — hunters start pulling on their own, sometimes take a bit of a beating, but they can always FD out of the object lesson. It’s FD that lets hunters get cocky and survive being stupid, I think.

  21. Fizzy Stouthammer says:

    I’m doing the best I can to learn to play a hunter well… to be a hunter, not a huntard. The dungeon finder definitely makes leveling easier, and I’ve been using it a lot. I’m doing what I can not to make senseless mistakes that can ruin things for a whole group of people. A friend of mine spends a lot of time tanking in raids and he is not exactly a fan of hunters. I’ve listened to his complaints, then done my best to avoid causing those problems myself. I’ve spent some time reading about tanking because I’ve never played a tank and figure I can be more co-operative if I understand what the other guy is doing. Managing my threat before getting FD was tricky for me, but I did it. It’s still tricky sometimes because tanks may be a few levels below me and not as well geared. It’s my responsibility to manage my own threat, though, and I won’t blame it on a “bad tank” who is really just doing their best for that level range, too.

    What I’m often seeing is entire groups just rushing in as if they are level 80. When you are level 35-37, running through the Scarlet Monastery as if you’re wearing gear from Icecrown Citadel isn’t really a good idea. And the number of people just dropping out because they died, the healer needed to stop for mana, the tank lost aggro once for about two seconds, or they’ve just decided more than five minutes for a dungeon is too long astounds me. I’m sure there are people who have rolled a hunter who fall into that group. I’ve been lucky enough to be in groups with other hunters who ranged from decent to very good. That’ll probably change now that I’ve said something about it.

  22. Fremskritt says:

    I had totally forgotten about the “huntard” stuff until I read this. I suppose a secluded life in a great guild does that to you…

    I am surprised nobody has mentioned huntards who are in Viper all the freaking time, I was healing on my shaman and this huntard was doing crap DPS. Another group member checked his buffs and saw Viper even though he had full mana. How did he explain it? “Viper is the best DPS aspect lol.” He went on to brag about how long he had played hunter. Riiiight…

  23. The Darkling Thrush says:

    I believe that part of the problem stems from what also makes hunters great to play – i.e., hunters are the easiest class to solo. You can easily level your hunter to 80 without ever having to learn how to work in groups. Hunters used to soloing are likely to think every fight should begin by sending in their pet and that threats should be avoided by running while the pet delays a chaser or by feign death. With PUGs being the welcoming institution that they are, it’s easy to get discouraged and avoid them rather than learn how to be a good team player. I realize that the players in randoms are not responsible for teaching a player how to play, but maybe with our alts in low-level dungeons this could be a worthwhile time investment? and act of charity? Otherwise lets hope that most of these clueless join a guild and learn some norms :p

  24. The Darkling Thrush says:

    @ Saelle: great point about the auto shot. It is so easy for an inexperienced hunter to let a shot slip, especially if they are spamming steady shot. They go right to the next target without ever meaning to! I did this, back in the day, before i got a clue. LOL sometimes think Blizz intentionally sets us up for these gaffes. Why NOT set the default to a setting that won’t cause wipes? Even set pet default to passive (although I can usually manage defensive without problems). Set new players up for success instead of failure? You think the designers at Blizz are trying to instigate drama?

  25. Massai says:

    My priest is level 11.

  26. Bakedtatters says:

    As an ICC raiding hunter i would just like to say, a hunter who has worked hard, did his/her research (as any class has to) can be a very valuable member to your raid, a hunter was really easy to lvl, but took a lot of work to raid correctly. Everbody makes mistake, but when hunters do it its an instafail, i didnt raid for a long time because of that, so all you hunters out there, do your freaken reserch, you and your friends, guildies, pugs will be glad you did :D

  27. Rydin says:

    Heck no.
    I think the real culprit is Feign Death.

    Totally agree with you here Frost… Once I really understood how to use Feign Death a touch of pride snuck into the back of my mind and said… “I could pull first, boost my DPS for 2-3 seconds, and FD to drop aggro while the tank runs out…”

    This was the stupidest thing I ever did… Everyone hates the hunter that pulls first… (And with GOOD REASON) It throws off the entire fight, and causes chaos, meaning longer fights and more wipes…

    I’ve stopped doing that because I stopped playing for UBER high DPS at the expense of the group… I’ve decided if it helps the team, i’m doing it… If not, I don’t mind making the sacrifice on DPS if it means a win…

    Hopefully these up-and-coming hunters will get the picture.. or find a site like to help them out! ;D

  28. Armydian says:

    Wow having read all of these comments makes me wonder how I am doing as a Hunter. I have only been kicked from a group once, but it begs to question, how many times have people been annoyed with me and just put up with me? I did not realize we caused as much trouble as we did. We all know how easy it is to spam FD and think its going to be fine. This proves that Hunters really should do their homework. The group is more important than one’s individual DPS. Just because you are pulling the most damage or DPS DOESN’T mean you are contributing the most. The person who works for and with the group is the one who contributes the most, and on top of that if you can still pull the most DPS, then you are doing great

  29. Hulder says:

    I haven’t been lvl 80 for long, and I’m fairly new to the game so by no means a WoW Specialist, but I can’t tell you how many PuGs I’ve entered while levelling my Hulder, only to hear after the first couple groups of mobs, “Woah, finally a hunter who knows what she’s doing!” both in comment on my dps and the fact that I, well, don’t do anything stupid like ninja-pull.

    I actually had a discussion with a fellow hunter once, it was in Dire Maul days, who did the run-away-when-aggroed thing. I told him to run TO the tank instead, to “unload” the mob on the tank, and he went: “But I always run away! It’s instinct! I can’t change that!” and kept doing it (and of course, kept pulling aggro by ninja-ing). That’s the level of idiocy that got us the nickname “huntards” as a class.

  30. Tabathine says:

    I think part of it is that we notice the hunters first. I always check when on my main or my lvl 26 mage if a hunter is in the group. I couldn’t care less who the other classes are. So if a hunter messes up, we notice. If another class messes up, well, their class is not my problem. Truthfully I was terrible DPS wise when I was lvling my hunter, but now she does fairly well. However being new to the game I always listened to advice, and said ‘sry’, ‘my bad’, and ‘err, oops?’ when called for. I figured that they new how to play, and I should listen.
    Now, lvling my mage, when someone asks me if I’m new to the game (as sometimes happens if I do a stupid don’t-know-how-to-be-a-mage mistake), I reply ‘No, but I am new to being a mage’. And I take the advice given. If a hunter messes up, I try my best to not get irritated, and try to give advice, and not simply attack. However I have to add my DPS rocks as a mage :P

    Some people think that if you know how to play one class, you know how to play all the classes. Thus the ‘Huntard’ is born. Also, it is unfortunate that our class is the one that has a readily available derogatory nickname. I’ve seen some terrible Warlocks, but what can you call them except a fail lock? Not very catching.

  31. Tabathine says:

    Oh, and I also tell tell the want to be hunters to check out this site and your weekly podcasts, which rock!

  32. Omogon of Lethon says:

    I have an 80 resto Druid that’s capable of Naxx healing. My experience in all pre-heroic Dungeons was pretty much the same….a lot of clueless trash talking arseholes..sprinkled with good players leveling alts. I remember 4 manning Deadmines after we had vote kicked a bunch of idiots….we were all veterans on alts.

    As for Hunters……..eeerrrrgggg………no pets….no idea of what gear to have on…… idea of threat control…….and my absolute favourite…….no fricking ammo after the first pull , so they say “it’s OK I’m pretty good at mellee” :(

  33. rkaycom says:

    I’ve been leveling alot of alts lately and I have noticed that alot of the Hunters are shit, really, really shit, but I do play a Hunter and I tend to take notice of them more then other classes…

  34. Zuljilius says:

    Although I consider my Hunter my main at the moment, I have hated them with all my heart until I rolled one for these exact reasons. I feel your pain bro.

  35. Cathy says:

    EVIL is an understatement for hunters!! Living with my hunter hubby I am threatened all the time with misdirects to my poor little druid tree. His wolf has pissed all over my tree trunk and he barks continuously while I’m in cat form. I’m waiting for that one moment when he is not paying attention so my bear can eat his wolf, whole. I’ll wipe that evil hunter grin right off his face :)

  36. Vaeku says:

    As a new-ish hunter (had a hunter main before I took a break from WoW, but now I’m starting from scratch), I’m having fun in dungeons, and haven’t run into too many hunters.

    I’ve been doing everything properly so people haven’t complained or anything, but what I’ve found is this scenario… The tank has died, due to pulling before the healer was ready (usually while they were drinking). So, the tank dies, and the mobs go to the healer or DPS. I put my pet on defensive, turn on growl, and have him pull the mobs off the healer. And when it’s all done, the other 4 members of the party are alive and well.

    And yet I get no thanks. I’m not asking for people to bow down to me or anything, but they just… well, don’t do anything. I’m sure I’m expecting too much out of these PuGs, but a simple “thank you” from the healer whose ass (and repair bill) I’ve saved would be nice every once in a while.

  37. Bozanimal says:

    Feign Death might be an issue, but not in my experience. My wife recently hit 80 for the first time (not her first character) – a Troll Hunter – and only used Feign Death twice; both times when I advised her to do so. She just doesn’t care, and is enjoying the game at her pace (she doesn’t run dungeons). Further, I have never seen a Hunter Feign Death in hundreds of dungeon runs, not once. The only time I ever see Feign Death used is during raids as an aggro management tool by Hunters that actually know what they’re doing.

    No; I think it is simply ignorance, inexperience, and outright idiocy causing issues in the LFD. Not every player is reading the forum stickies, WHU, and I find hunters pulling for tanks to be the biggest issue, followed closely by poor pet management. Paladin tanks especially need to pause to drink after pulls, especially at lower levels, and nobody likes to stop anymore. Further, when the tank jumps over a wall or off a ledge and the pet paths around the ramp, it’s a big issue in dungeons like Sunken Temple that can lead to over-pulling. Heck, it’s an issue just to get people to attack the mob marked with a giant skull over its head!

  38. Valacia says:

    In general…. I hate hunters… I love BEING one, but I hate them. It isn’t nearly as bad nowadays. You see an 80 hunter today and you can be relatively confident that they aren’t a complete moron (after all, most of those got all excited to have a DK…), but in general a large number of hunters barely know the basics of DPS, much less the basics of Huntering.

    I’ve got a Druid tank and a Resto Shaman, so I have seen all sides of this story, and the only class more likely to be complete dicks and do stupid crap like pull ahead of the tank are shaman…

    Heck, even DKs have gotten better and stopped doing things like deathgriping the mob I am trying to pull, I have actually seen some DKs who are aware enough that they will actually use deathgrip intelligently; pulling a caster into melee for me when I am tanking, for example.

    By the way, healing is pimp. I think that there is no other role in the game as personally satisfying. Owning the meters on my hunter is wonderful and awesome, every once in a while you even get to be the star of the show… but man, when you have a situation where it looks like everyone is going to die. When the tank pulls too many mobs (like all of the mobs on the upper ramp in PoS at once) and is taking 40k damage every other GCD along with heavy damage to party members… and you pull that off…. wow… One of the most intense moments I have ever experienced in WoW.

    When you pull something like that off people notice. When you pull 13k dps+ people expect that.

    I have actually found that playing a healer and a tank has made me a better hunter. I would highly recommend playing both of these roles, even if at only lower levels, to any DPS player. There is so much more to every encounter than what a DPSer will ever see, and playing all three roles is a HUGE eye opener.

  39. Valacia says:

    To qualify my last post about loving healing… I am a hunter in my heart of hearts, my hunter is my main, I doubt that will ever change.

    @ Bonzai
    I think you have it on the head there. The thing I think makes Hunters particularly bad is our pets. We get this vibe as we level that we can take on just about anything because we have a built in meat shield. I also think that Misdirect is partially to blame. Often times hunters assume that since they can misdirect to the tank that pulling becomes their jorb.

  40. Dansonsdorf says:

    Anger + embarrassment, was running Shadow Lab. on my lowb hunter, and there was another “hunter” in there. He was an elf, so my expectations were already lowered, but then this guy, just out of the blue, starts popping off in party chat about how my toon sucks?!?!
    So it seems my, modest at that lvl, but still, agility laden gear, was total crap, and his entire heap of strength/stam gear, empty sockets, no enchants of any sort, was uber awesome?!?!
    I actually popped recount, and simply replied, “I guess that explains why my dps is nearly 3 times higher than yours”.
    He slightly backed up, and then I was able to try and direct him here, to learn a little. No idea if it worked, but I did expose him to the truth.
    The thing is, the whole party sat and watched what they most likely saw as the 2 village idiots, gnawing on each other.
    Still waiting on the “reach through the internet, and choke someone” addon
    It is so true that the difference between ignorance and stupidity is MASSIVE

  41. Thorgalas says:

    After my first comment I had this happen last night. I was running Ramparts on my level 60 Pally and Hellreaver dropped. We had a hunter with us who was not doing that great rolled on the pole arm. Before I could tell him that Hunters don’t use/need strength he left the group. What was worse I lost the roll on something I could have used. I’m glad I know my class after all I have 5 hunters and I think that’s why when I go into groups and they whisper wow you really know how to play your class. I think to myself are there really that many fail hunters out there. That’s why I’m glad that there are sites like the wowhunters union that can inform hunters. Frost thanks for the stellar work.

  42. Jjohnson says:

    I was on my Druid healing Gundrak the other night and had a hunter with us. Didn’t think much of it. They had a turtle which is fine. But then he dies and I decide to watch him for a bit. He’s running into the mobs with the tank (just far enough away to shoot). We’re at the last boss and I decide to let him die and let him know that as a hunter he needs to stay out and not run into the mob (especially when the WW). I hear nothing in return. URGH!

  43. Beergasm says:

    Well a couple things: First I love my shadow priest. I play him few and far between. Started him a little over a year ago and he’s only 61, but I’ve been playing him a lot lately and will definitely get him to 80 before cataclysm. I enjoy it but the shadow rotation is so repetitive that I sometimes want to gouge out the eyes of cute mewling kittens.

    I find that about 90% of the time, if somebody is being an asshat in a pug (or in general), it’s a DK. I was in hellfire ramparts with my priest the other night and we had a DK dps in the group. I dunno if he was just an idiot or didn’t know much english, or both, but it took us about 5 minutes to explain to him to use blood aura, not frost aura (our tank was a DK in frost aura). Finally I literally had to type “push the red skull button on the third (top) row of your action bar”. Finally he did it. A couple pulls later he asked “is it okay if I use my frost spells?”

    The same guy was also asking for guild invites, even though it was a crossrealm pug.

    So yeah. Death Knights.

  44. Beirdra/Shadda says:

    I’m leveling a disc priest right now through the dungeon finder and while I have run into a few inexperienced hunters, over all they’re no worse than any other class. Mages draw aggro far more often; Shaman like to forget to drop totems (or move them so they don’t aggro pats); and warlocks refuse to drink and then lifetap themselves out of existence at the beginning of a pull… crazy emo kids and their fel magics…
    One of the big problems at lower levels seems to be communication. Tanks don’t wait for the dps to regen their mana, dps get impatient and pull before the tank is ready, multiple people try to tank or heal, or people go out of the healer’s range/los when they pull aggro. I suspect long wait times are largely to blame. People just get fed up and want to get the run over asap.

  45. fearcom says:

    hey ot the person who said imagen leveling to 70 without macros i have and to this day i dont play with macros i think there bull shit and a waste of my time to sit here and do if i can do the dps i need to be doing without them then forget it and if you cant od good dps without macros you just neeed to stop playing FOREVER.

  46. SmakenDahed says:

    I’ve experienced much the same, though not necessarily with low levels. I have two other level 80s; a Holy Priest and Prot Pally. Some of the PUGs I get with them have some really bad Hunters in them.

    No FD, no MD, no pet control, no concept of any sort of rotation and half the time they don’t seem to think… just pew pew.

    I’ve seen those with my main (Dwarf Hunter ;)) sometimes, but definitely notice it more as a healer or tank. I guess another Hunter’s role has less of an impact on what I have to do vs. what a healer or tank has to deal with.

    Personally, I think lower level Hunters use the pet as a crutch. FD is next up on the list.

  47. Alisaunder says:

    79 hunter 72 priest. 69 Mage. 64 dk
    love my hunter but you remind me of the dumb stuff I outgrew many levels ago. Early on I had no idea what I was doing and noone to tell me. Getting volley was the worst time for me because I had to learn how to use it. Aimed shot probably I was just as bad.

    My priest I picked up again around 40 and her groups since have had only good hunters. It’s the mages shamans and rogues. I stopped playing holy spec because of the tanks and those three but mostly the tanks so hopefully as you advance you will see things change

  48. Aldrong says:

    i think that it is about 50/50. My main was a hunter and lving him I didn’t do any of the stuff u said except every now and then forgetting to turn growl off, but that’s a honest mistake. Since i recently recruited my friend i was thrilled when he told me he made a hunter, so i made a druid to play with him, at first I tanked but since I was balance it was a little difficult after a while and found out I could heal. Anyway while I was tanking my friend was basically a agro machine, after a while I didn’t bother to do anything because he was able to fend for himself as long as it was just one or two, but then u have one person who I got into a random with that’s just stupid, attacking a boss before tank was ready clicking items that would let enemies out and so on.

  49. Dyre42 says:

    “I have actually found that playing a healer and a tank has made me a better hunter.”
    Very true. I’m leveling both atm when things are slow for my Hunter. Tanking definitely improves your situational awareness. Additionally you pick up this habit of keeping an eye on the healers health and mana bars. With pug tanks playing so sloppy these days healers appreciate a DPS with enough skill and presence of mind to keep them alive. (Just don’t expect any expressions of gratitude though .)

  50. Ug says:

    This is a real good discussion. I have 3 well geared level 80 toons. The most uber being a Hunter but I also have a druid healer and a DK tank. Our main tank in the guild advised me one time of his 3 rules for tanking. If the tank dies its the healers fault. If the healer dies its the tanks fault and if someone pulls off the tank they must want to tank it themselves and he lets them. I was reminded of this last night as we went through Naxx for the weekly. Our guild has a lot of alts so we usually run the weekly 4 or more times. On the second run we had 2 fairly new tanks and I was on my hunter. I did a lot of MD Volleying but when MD was on cooldown I would attack an Abom and quickly pull him off the tank. this was not a big deal since I easily killed him before he got more than a few steps from the tank.

    I tend to use the same rules when I am tanking. I watch the healer and grab mobs off him but if a hunter wants to tank something he can.

    I was running a random the other day on my lvl 74 palley with a fellow hunter leveling his dk and another guildie leveling a priest. There was a hunter in the group and after the first pull he asked “why did my pet die?”. well he pulled a mob off me and FD’d leaving his pet to tank and the mob killed it. He kept doing this the whole run so the healer stopped healing his pet, it must have died 10 times ( I did feel bad about it, should have called DEHTA). He did all the other stuff too like pulling when I was drinking, etc.

  51. mbzn says:

    Reading this made me realise how bad I would have been as a noob hunter in instances. I leveled to 75 only having been in 2 instances total, otherwise the huntard reputation would have been significantly worse – lol

    We were doing an instance recently an had 2 hunters in the party, one was really good could cc manage his pet and was watching the healz mana etc. The other one was all over the place at one point he took a mana break and sent his raptor into the room to pull a mob out to “help” us (wipe number 6). We decided not to vote kick him, but let him do his own thing, if he died he stayed dead while we 4 maned area. I tried to talk to him in the instance, but he just blew static at us about how the healz was an idiot, the tank couldn’t hold agro off him etc. I managed to convince him to try the instance again with my alt hunter (level 28) and between us managed to do the instance with only 3 wipes (not my fault). Hopefully he will be improving the huntard name…

  52. Zyphir says:

    I think part of the problem with Hunters running away when they get agro is trying to get to range to get more shots off. I know when I was a young hunter I had to break myself of that habit. I wasn’t running to get away from the mob, I was trying to get far enough away that I could kill it….ah the “good” ol’ days.

  53. Nnof says:

    Seems like a lot of people are having the same experience. I recently levelled a resto-druid to 80 via the LFD (I too always buffed and healed the pets). Unfortunately I came across exactly the same thing. I would always make a point of watching the hunter, and cringe at the sight of pets-on-aggressive pulling mobs at random constantly wiping the group before they were v-kicked out (I even had a macro that said “do you mind taking your pet off aggressive please”)

    I started out trying to give helpful whispers “target the tank’s target” and “had you thought about taking talent X over Y” and “take a look at the WHU site” only to be greeted with “lol learn2play noob idc”.
    I’m sorry to say that the spellpower Hunter is still alive and well.
    Having said that, I did come across some good ones one in a while, we’d chat about talents, gear etc., and it’s my hope that these are the hunters who make it to end-game.

    The one instance that still sticks in my memory is a Dire Maul run. I spent half the dungeon trying to de-bug my healbot because the Hunter’s pet wasn’t showing up. Only to finally realise that he never actually had his pet out at all. This guy was BM spec’d…… Oh, and the guy who brought a crocolisk pet and just didn’t understand why he kept pulling aggro from the tank.


    @ Beirdra/Shadda: Walocks lifetaping, as a levelling healer that really sucks.

  54. Eest says:

    I have a 80 disc priest, and I personally don’t see hunters as a problem… Neither have I ever done, while I was leveling they didn’t seem like a big problem to me, tho this might be because it was before dungeon finder…
    But I have a hunter who recently hit outland, and I dont think im being a huntard… I think I saved a group from a wipe in a ramparts by pulling the first boss off the near-dead tank for 15 secs or so… Well, they didn’t scream me, so I think it was fine :P

  55. Killashandar says:

    Myself and my fella started a bear tank and healer priest duo to run dungeons when raiding got too stressful, and we’ve had a very similar experience with baby huntards. It’s got to the point where I dread seeing a hunter in the group. They have a great fondness of pulling before me, and with rage generation being as sucky as it is at low levels, it is a royal pain in the arse to pull mobs back off them. It’s always the ones with Heirloom gear that are the worse too, who should at least know that you let the tank pull first. If they get too annoying though the healer just black lists them on healbot. Hurray!

  56. Ogdai says:

    I think part of it is that the hunter solo playstyle is just inimical to groups. Same with mages. Mages learn to frost nova things they aggro and then kite them, which is exactly the wrong response in most groups. There’s just a learning curve in the first half dozen instances where the player learns how to play the class differently in groups. You probably also have higher standards for hunters in your groups.

    Besides, everyone knows that DKs are the new huntards. :)

  57. Tulack says:

    As a new WoW player and someone who has taken a shine to the Hunter, I enjoy reading all this great information. This is stuff I just would not have figured out for some time, as I am a very casual player. Hell, it took me two weeks to figure out what “agro” meant. Couldn’t be bothered to Google it.

    All that aside, these articles and the resultant discussion is very heartening. It seems that some days all the players are 14 yo kids with some bizarre language skills and are very quick to temper. As a mature player, it’s why I don’t belong to a guild or get help from anyone in game. These forums make up for that.

    So thanks to Frostheim (keep wanting to say Florsheim… he’s a dwarf, not a shoe) and all the rest for continuing to make this my resource.

    Long time lurker, first time commenter.

  58. Vigg says:

    I have an 80 hunter (Viggtarsky, Mok’Nathal) and a DK tank that I don’t play much anymore because I am enjoying levelling with the dungeon finder. Yes, thats right, I just said that I am enjoying levelling. It only because of the heirlooms and dungeon finder. I can’t stand questing. I have been levelling a druid healer and am at level 65. I had a few bad hunters, but now I get the DK’s. They are far worse than the hunters. There are lots of either clueless tanks or OPed DPS that pull aggro. Just wait, you’ll see once your healer gets to outlands. I guess all the good players that made DK’s have long since levelled and now we get…. others. Thank you Blizz for creating DK’s so we hunters can shed our bad name, “Huntard”.
    Common tank issues:
    Pull with deathgrip leaving a caster at distance.
    No AOE for aggro so I draw aggro on the caster
    Not in Frost presence so they can’t hold aggro.
    DPS issues:
    Using frost presence and pulling aggro.
    Not attacking the tanks target and pulling aggro.
    Pulling other groups with deathgrip while still dealing with the first mob.

    So far I have only voted to kick one hunter from group but have voted or left groups because of several DK’s.

  59. JonArrowfoot says:

    HI I most say I have two lvl 80 hunters, and 48 warrior and a 4 lvl paly. I am too have tired new things but keep going back to my hunters. Yes it is true that i have seen some Huntards out there, maybe to many, and I hate with the utmost passion being calling one when i show up in a group or raid. We must however not forget that the Huntard is not the only member of this family. There are Tanktards, healtards, palytards shamtards and “tards” in every class. The name dosent stick becouse too many toons look down on hunters. Something i have noticed is that when i play my Warrior I run into sooo many bad hunters, yet if I am running one of my hunters I see alot more of the bad players in other class’s. I think this inpart do to the fact that we who love hunters and play them well, are so very bothered by bad hunters. Plus I think its like buying a car, you never really noticed how many Red cars are on the road, till you bought a red car, now they are every where. Any way just my thoughts. Happy Hunting all!

  60. liamwayne says:

    mains a hunter. made a tank alt. hate hunters..

    all in all i must say i love that you used the word asshat frostheim, that is more than enough reason to never give up on our favorite shoot’em up class

  61. Joonces says:

    I have to say, it’s not just the hunters. Been playing my lowbie hunter (she’s 40 now) and I find I get in PUGS where everyone thinks they can pull like it’s a heroic. I’d be rich if I got a dollar every time I was the last toon standing after the tank (or someone) pulled more than 2 groups at a time. And even richer if I had a dollar for how many times they only held on to 1 or 2 mobs while the rest ran for the healer. I find myself on healer protection duty for most runs. So yes, it’s huntards, but it’s also noob tanks, rogues, dps warriors, mages, locks, etc.

    I think the speed of heroics have given people the expectation that they can do the same at low levels, but the lower dungeons (when done AT level and with gear from that level) just have a totally different pace that people don’t seem to make adjustments for.

    That said, there are always those good PUGs that keep you coming back!

  62. Malvado says:

    Mains a hunter and leveling a shaman now, and my faces scrunches when I see low level hunters come in. It makes me ashamed to be a hunter at times, and u try and tell them what to do and then they cus you out because they think you don’t have a clue what your talking about. Ugh.

  63. Fradin says:

    I think its every classes out there, some people just dont understand the basic mechcanics of how this game actually works – let tank pull and get agro then dps which seems simple however so many people jump the gun making it harder for the tanks to collect the adds then then the poor heals having to spam raid heals just to keep everyone up. I never really noticed this either till I rolled a druid healer and really saw what the other side was like .

  64. Chimy says:

    I think my huntard percentage is about 5-10% or so of groups that I tank or heal. If I’m healing and I see a hunter I think, “Neat! This going to go really really well, or fall on it’s face, depending on how much of a tard this hunter is.” I find that the worst offenders sometimes are the ICC geared ‘my tank should be able to trump my threat’ jocks.

    Please, for the love of god, newbie hunters… just misdirect to the tank before they pull. It’s practically free and you can even help stop other dps from causing a failpug.

  65. Eidelweiss says:

    Ah, you guys should have rolled with me when I discovered LFG about lvl 73 or so. I’d only leveled through questing and some BGs until then and my hunter’s my first toon.

    My biggest stat was spell power, because I thought that spell power translated into much boom in my magic shots.
    My signature shot was distracting shot, because I thought that it really helped a group of those mobs were good and distracted.
    I rolled on anything with higher armor than what I was wearing. If the top number was bigger, it was better to me.
    I had no idea how to turn growl off on a pet. Fortunately, I had no idea how to send the pet in first because oh yes, I would have done it to help!

    I was berated, spit on, barked at, kicked…You name it, and all with extremely good reason.

    I manned up, took the abuse, explained I was an idiot and got a lot of great advice though. I also realized I needed some help and was lucky enough to find this place through Google. After that I was well on my way!

    Take it easy on the leveling huntards until you’re certain raging asshattedness has been established. They may just be terribly, terribly ignorant and inexplicably drawn to the greatest class in the game :)

  66. Arrowan says:

    I Love it :-)

  67. Bashel says:

    oh god low level hunters are not where it ends! i was on my level 40 druid healing like most hunters do in their off days and the hunter in thr group was telling me how to play hunter and that even though i have an 80 im doing everything wrong! i even caught him meleeing a few times! what nerve! well its easy to say that i instantly stopped healing any AoE on him but kep the pet alive can’t punish the animal for being stuck wtih a stupid hunter! its these warriors and pallies who are hunter wannabies that gives us the name HUNTARD!