Wow. Blizz laid a big ‘un on us today with their new philosophy for raid progression. Here’s the main points:
The first of the refinements being made is that we’re combining all raid sizes and difficulties into a single lockout. Unlike today, 10- and 25-player modes of a single raid will share the same lockout. You can defeat each raid boss once per week per character. In other words, if you wanted to do both a 10- and 25-person raid in a single week, you’d need to do so on two different characters. Normal versus Heroic mode will be chosen on a per-boss basis in Cataclysm raids, the same way it works in Icecrown Citadel. Obviously the raid lockout change doesn’t apply in pure Icecrown terms though, as this change goes hand-in-hand with a few other changes to raid progression in Cataclysm.
We’re designing and balancing raids so that the difficulty between 10- and 25-player versions of each difficulty will be as close as possible to each other as we can achieve. That closeness in difficulty also means that we’ll have bosses dropping the same items in 10- and 25-player raids of each difficulty. They’ll have the same name and same stats; they are in fact the exact same items. Choosing Heroic mode will drop a scaled-up version of those items. Our hope is that players will be able to associate bosses with their loot tables and even associate specific artwork with specific item names to a far greater extent than today.
Dungeon Difficulty and Rewards
10- and 25-player (normal difficulty) — Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop the exact same items as each other.
10- and 25-player (Heroic difficulty) — Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop more powerful versions of the normal-difficulty items.We of course recognize the logistical realities of organizing larger groups of people, so while the loot quality will not change, 25-player versions will drop a higher quantity of loot per player (items, but also badges, and even gold), making it a more efficient route if you’re able to gather the people. The raid designers are designing encounters with these changes in mind, and the class designers are making class changes to help make 10-person groups easier to build.
You can see the entire blue post Here.
There are good things and there are bad things about this change. Personally, I’m a little leery of it, as the end result is that you have fewer content options to pursue with your main. I’m trying really really hard to find the silver lining, but this restructuring is a particularly harsh blow to my guild & raid team structure.
The Good
- A raid is a raid. Raiders will no longer feel like they have to do both 10 and 25, because a couple key BiS pieces drop from the 10-man version, or they feel they need the additional opportunity for loot.
- Huge bonus to 10-man only raid teams. They now have access to the top gear. And let’s be honest, while most if ICC is easier in 10-man, a lot of Wrath content was actually harder in 10-man (especially back in Naxx days).
- Tracking lockouts is simpler. Maybe, kinda.
The Bad
- Much like BC destroyed raiding guilds everywhere, I suspect this will do so as well. You now have to *choose* between your 25-man and your 10-man. I forsee a lot of struggling 25-man ditching half their team and making a 10-man team of the A-list players.
- You can’t use 10-man teams to learn the encounters and work on gear for to help your 25-man.
- 10-man raids are likely to be more restrictive. A 25-man can get every raid buff, and a 10-man cannot. This makes class selection much more important in 10-mans. I forsee a lot of leading 10-man teams that go the “all physical dps” or “all magical dps” routes so they can come close to getting all the buffs they need.
- If the actual difficulty in terms of skill is the same, then 10-mans will be flat out harder, because the cost of losing one person (to a DC, dumb mistake, etc) is much higher.
- You have less content you can do each week with your main.
- I have to say, and this is personal preference, I prefer the TotC model where the hardmode is a separate lockout. That way guilds who access the hard mode can still run the normal mode to gear up newer members. Making them share a lockout just makes it harder to ever catch up.
The Choice
If you are in a casual progression guild that runs both 25 and 10-man raid teams, here are your choices for Cataclysm:
- Screw the 10-mans. We are now a 25-man exclusive guild.
- Screw the 25-man. We’ll just run multiple 10-man teams… and you know, not hang out together. This feels weird, ’cause there’s not a ton of benefit to being all together in the guild (one bank for multiple teams that never shall meet is odd).
- We do both. Since there will be multiple raid instances with fewer bosses we say this week 25-man does instance A and 10-mans do instance B. Next week we swap.
- We do both. First week we only do 25-man raids. The next week is 10-man week. We alternate content.
- Screw you Blizzard, we’re playing Star Trek Online. Or Farmville.
And just a note here as to why this combination of the raid size lockouts has the potential to hurt so much… if we set aside the hardcore endgame guilds for a moment, and look at the vast majority of casual progression guilds, we’re usually looking at a guild that runs a 25-man raid, and probably also has one or two 10-man teams.
So they’re running 3 different raid teams, really. Sometimes more. In all likelihood, one of those raid teams progresses faster than the others. Maybe one of the 10-man teams is far ahead. Maybe the 25-man team with the magic of all raid buffs and being more forgiving of individual error is leaping ahead. Having the raids share a lockout kills every team but the best, basically. And if the best team is a 10-man, the decisions get really painful. After all, you probably want to run together as a big team. But you also want to down bosses as fast as you can.
Wow, this is just gonna hurt, I tell ya.
Bye bye 25 mans no1 will bother doing you anymore. Every lazy ass will be able to get the same loot as all the hard working teams organizing 25 mans. BAD changes Blizz we will QQ ALOT!
/cry /cry /cry
I get the whole “both sides” thing, I really do, but this change is GREAT for me. I can’t run 25 mans, my computer can’t handle it, even with settings all the way down. The best I can do, on my healer is, is run VoA, target the tank and spam Chain Heal while my lag is so bad I can’t even see my GCD. I’m sportin an average ilvl of 249 or so on my hunter and run ICC 10 every week. I’m certainly not lazy and certainly not unwilling to run the content if I could. I have missed out on the amazing Death’s Verdict, simply because I can’t run the 25 man. I also like the idea of not feeling like I have to do the same raid 4 times a week, assuming I get a better computer in the future, just to do 10N, 10H, 25N, and 25H, and that’s assuming there’s only one raid I could get anything from. I am sure there are many others out there in the same boat I am. I said all that simply to say this, this change looks to be a good thing for me, I look forward to it.
*Don’t think it will kill 25 mans, either, if I ever get a working computer, I’d rather run the 25 man, for a better drop ratio and the bigger emblem rewards, assuming I’m in a 25 man guild or raid team
** Will or should be the death of 25 man pugs though, not gonna get saved to a fail pug 25 when I can get the same gear in a successful guild 10.
I have to be honest this is gonna kill me. I run an ICC 10m team because I loveee 10m. Too many egos in 25 for me. But ALL of my 10m teams have 25m runs of the same instances. If it comes to a choice, I will definitely lose some of them. It’s just a fact, not everyone has the same passion for 10m as me, or their allegiance is to their guild or friends or whatever.
In other words come Cata, the team I worked so hard for, the team we LEARNED ICC with up to Sindragosa in 6 weeks will be killed dead in the water.
I hope they change their minds.
Not gonna lie, this is great news for me and my guild. We’re exclusively 10M, relatively skilled, and hate trying to PuG 25M’s, and any guild push to recruit toward 25M’s usually ends up failing horribly.
Less to do, sure, but I actually don’t see that as a bad thing. I love raiding with my guild. But I hate feeling the need to find a 25M ICC/VoA/etc. PuG every week to feel like I’m keeping up. This will be more time for alts, gold or rep grinding, real life, etc.
I really dont see this as Bad yet. I believe the silver lining will lie in the “Unknown” that is coming with the rest of the overhauls in Cataclysm. I just dont believe, IMHO, that Blizzard would perform such a strange adjustment without some secret on the backburner. However, if there intentions are plainly stated here and go no further, then I will still hold to my belief that just because the mechanics are changing, doesn’t mean I have to QQ and /ragequit, but rather I would strive forward with open mind to better embrace the new. Change scares people, even in games obviously, I dont have that belief system. I think instead, change is the opportunity to further grow. Sorry to sound philosophical, but reactions mean the same thing regardless of the apparent “seriousness”, or lack of, in a subject. Also, there is no sense in worrying about a future that isn’t here and is made up in our minds. Wait to see what happens, and choose from KNOWING, how to act. WoW will still be fun, it just may look different. But fun doesn’t have to “look” a certain way.
im in a 25 man guild and I like this change. 25 normal for the guild and run 10man heroic with our 10 man groups
I’m definitely more concerned about how this will affect guilds rather than with the lack of distinction between 25 and 10 man loot.
My guild runs 25 man raids with slow, but decent success, as well as several 10 man groups with widely varying levels of success, which I’m sure is a fairly common situation.
In the past, the disparity between the 10 man groups has been the source of a significant amount of drama and unrest, with those not selected for the most successful groups feeling a bit left out and resentful.
There had often been calls for the 10 man groups to be put on forced rotations to prevent one group from taking all the best players. On the other side, people in those established and successful groups understandably did not want to be forced to give up their often hard earned progression in order to keep the groups more even.
In the past, these problems were tempered by the fact that we were able to do 25 man raids as a guild separate from the 10 man groups. Of course, there will still be the option to run 25 man raids come Cataclysm, but I do foresee 10 man groups becoming more of a progression focus for many guilds because of these changes, and as such, the potential for similar types of discontent and drama over group disparity within guilds to increase.
ALT hunter is now lvl 60 so should be good for both : )
“This makes class selection much more important in 10-mans. I forsee a lot of leading 10-man teams that go the “all physical dps” or “all magical dps” routes so they can come close to getting all the buffs they need.”
Perhaps, but those of us already in 10-man raids just pluggging along the best we can will continue to do so. (Truth: ICC-10 is a lot harder in 10-man/badge gear without Int/GotW/a decurse/heroism or bloodlust, which is how my priest’s guild normally runs.)
People are focusing to much on the item level change and not enough on the shared lockout, which is the real bomb shell. While I still think it’s to early to call whether or not this will make or break 25 mans, it’s just as possible the shared lock out could kill 10 mans. If 25 mans are much faster for getting gear than 10s, then people will run 25 mans and not participate in 10 mans. The only people left in 10s will be small guilds that can’t participate in 25 mans.
I’m curious how blizzard will balance these factors, if it weren’t for the shared lockout, they would be able to tweak until they hit a good balance without risking loosing an entire facet of raiding, but the shared lockout it forces players to make a choice. If they screw up they can wreck raiding. If they have to error I would rather them error in favor of 25 mans, as 10 mans could recover from a period where they were not profitable, but once the frameworks for 25 mans are gone, it will be very hard to restart 25 man progression.
Well, I think this definitely favors 10m. While not the end of 25s, it certainly is more likely that they will be fewer and farther between. One plus could be that if guild chose to focus teams more on 10m content, they may be able to have team rosters and rotate people in more frequently, kind of like Hockey and Basketball. On the other hand, it might end up like Soccer, where subs are few and far between. In my guild, who would want to risk a 25 when you can never tell if people will show up more than 1 or 2 nights consistently. Securing 10 consistently, is much more doable.
I’ll be sad to see the change but, I suspect it is as inevitable as death and taxes.
Coming from a couple games that didnt have any lock-outs…I feel lockouts is and probably has always been a horrific idea. But being locked out of a 25 man because youve already done the 10 man is going to kill many small guild/alliances like youve stated, new content will expand the games numbers on the same note though…bringing back old 80s whove left for greener pastures and new players looking for the next game magizines *this years best*….Too many variables to judge right now how great this will be, but locking out players from a raid because theyve already completed it this week…just lame in my opinion. LET ME FARM WHAT I WANT TO FARM >.<
I like that fact the 10 man raids are less forgiving of individual error. I’ve been on great, fast moving and successful 25 man raids and 10 man raids. Now I don’t have time to run 25 man raids, and not having access to 25man raid gear is a bummer. As you said, 10 is less forgiving that 25 raids and I’m in favor of merging lockouts and loot ilevels. And with the more 25 raids not running, there will be an abundance of 10 raids, perhaps giving more players opportunity to raid that might not get a spot in a 25. =)
40 person raids have been known to give me nose bleeds.
I strongly dislike 25 person raids.
Maybe I just don’t work well with people and adding 15 more, to me, just ups the odds that there will be multiple people that don’t know the fight and/or aggravate me.
I’m glad the gear is the same, and cautiously pessimistic about the shared lock out. 1 for 10 man and 1 for 25 man would be peachy and allow more people more options.
For folks like my friend with a freakin basketball team full of geared 80′s he will just shrug and decide which toon to run where. Frankly, I have a LIFE outside this game Blizz and I only play (I know it’s wierd) ONE toon.
Forget whether this will affect 10 versus 25 man raids more. Think about this from an account perspective of people, like me, that want to push end game content in each expansion but only play one character in the game.
Hell, my options lately are limited to ICC10 & 25 anyway. Everything else is booooooooooooooooooooring. So know…I get to limit my raiding to one of the only two raids I get excited for. I actually like to changes in the fight dynamics between 10 & 25 man raids.
This flat out SUCKS! I wonder what compelled them to come up with this.
Well, I guess this might help explain things like mages getting time warp. I expect to see even more spreading the buffs around happening as Cata changes get closer. If Blizz is expecting a shift to primarily 10 man content, it makes sense that they would restructure the “needed classes” mindset. I’ll be withholding judgement till these changes roll out on public realms.
I am holding out judgment until I see what my guild is thinking about it. One thing that I do really like is that it means no more trying to find a 10 man every week because my guild is a 25 man guild, only. We ahve a 10 man team, but it is not open for anyone who can’t heal.
I also think that this is being done to help with the tier creep we saw in Wrath. This way emblem farming will be slower, meaning they won’t need to have multiple levels within each tier, meaning they can better control scaling and hopefully it won’t get so out of hand like it did in wrath.
Mostly I am just excited that I am not gonna be gimped because I can’t find a 10 man this week. Currently I am in desperate need of hersir’s greatspear because I need the hit, but no pug ever does princes unless they can one shot putricide. Even on Stormrage pugs rarely go that far.
I am concerned that this means each bosses loot table will be larger, and therefore that item you are waiting for, that one last item you need will potentiall take longer to drop than DV ahs for me (I have yet to ever see DV drop, not one single solitary time…)
I’m assuming that if Blizzard are giving us less to do, by limiting us to 1 raid per week per instance, that they’ve also thought about increasing the amount of content surrounding it. That is – either more dungeons, and/or more raids.
Currently end-game raiding is sequential – that is, each raid gears up to the next one. What if they were changing this to parallel? That is multiple instances with gear of a similiar level?
If that’s the case, what you could have is people doing the alternate bits, but on different raids.
I’m in a small guild, that teams with another small guild to get enough for 10′s, and then occasionally pugs 25′s. This will hurt our top players in both guilds – who 10 with us as we move slowly and sociably through ICC, but go and do their own stretching 25′s with others. It’s been a win-win situation for them – they get the sociable with us, they lead us through it with their prior knowledge, but at the same time they get to do the exciting gearing-up and learning it for the first time that they thrive on.
There are other changes going on that also impact this with the guild talents and so on. If Blizzard doesn’t have a major rethink of guilds going on, which will cause a restructure – I’d be surprised. Is that necessarily a bad thing? I don’t know.
i.e. I’m in wait-and-see mode. There’s got to be more to this than meets the eye.
I don’t get why people are missing so much information here. The only thing that might be a deal is the lockouts. 25mans are going anywhere for a couple of reasons. 1) There is going to be higher ratio of loot/gold/emblems per person. “making it a more efficient route if you’re able to gather the people.” Such as a 25man will get 4 pieces of gear and ten only gets 1 (not actual numbers just examples). On top of that every 25man raid member could get 2 more emblems which means being able to buy emblem gear that much sooner. 2) Blizzard states equal in difficulty but that DOES NOT mean the same numbers will be used for 10 & 25. 25 man will most certainly have harder hitting & more frequent boss abilities or perhaps more demanding timers. They mean relatively in difficulty a 25man will have to work as much as a ten man to take down a boss. 3) Lastly is the shared lockouts. You definitely wont be able to have both a 10 and 25man group anymore but how many people don’t have at least 2 80′s anyways? If its all about gearing just one character then yeah it sucks. If its just for the social aspect as so many claim then just roll a second character up to level and dedicate one to 10 and the other to 25. Inefficient answer? Yes but that’s the draw back to shared loot pools. The benefit is now any usual 10man raider is not gimped compared to the other 25man regulars and the transition is seamless.
In short: It isn’t even beta yet. I’m sure this will change some but don’t get in a hub-bub just because of change. You’ll buy cataclysm, this will become second nature and it won’t even be that big of a deal.
Combined with guild acheivements, I wonder if a “healthy high ranking” guild will benefit from having a 25. Bliz might be appealing to egos and greed by making certain “guild levels” only attainable by guild members having completed both 10 and 25 man content.
Ooooh, side concern I just thought of… “WTF??? You guys went in on 10 man and killed the boss? You just screwed us this week!” If the “A” team wasn’t elitist before Cataclysm, it sure will be after.
The way i read it you will only be able to complete the instance once a week and during the event you can switch any boss to heroic mode. My guild is normally a 10 man guild yet we have been running a 25 man lately with another guild so i do get the optional of both at the moment. All I can see is this will take people longer to gear up because at the moment you can do both versions of 10 and 25 man on more than 1 instance even tho the 25 man is meant to have more loot and emblems will it add up to the same amount ? .All I can see coming from this is either people spending less time on wow which you still pay for every month or players with multiply characters so they still have something to do. The only other way out would be to create another 5 or 10 instances so you don’t run out of content on your main character otherwise after your couple of raids there will be nothing left to do. To me it seems like a money venture either you have more than 1 toon or you play less but still pay the same amount each month to play your toon !.
i like the change as long as they dont starve us for content. i kinda like the idea of having boss ID instead of entire raid ID to but thats another story
oh and hey if you guys are switching to farmville, i need some wood for a fence.
im only kidding, i dont play farmland or whatever it is. god i hate facebook.
so why bother putting all that effort into gettin a 25 man raid team together every week (trust me it’s a pain in the arse) when you can easily get your 10 best players and clear the same content? pretty stupid change if u ask me.
and no u cant run 25 man and then have your best players run 10 herioc because the lockouts are shared and hard modes are activated per boss.
I think it encourages alt play. Currently I don’t have enough time to raid with anyone but my hunter. Now, for the same time investment, I can gear out 2 toons (yes, I have an alt, albeit a very neglected one). Blizzard will get our money whether we play a little or a lot. It doesn’t matter to them. So I don’t think this is a money thing.
Besides, there’s still incentives to 25M’s, just not as much as current content. I think people are forgetting that.
I can sympathize with those in 25M guilds right now. But this is quite honestly the best WoW news I’ve heard in Cataclysm.
seems to me like it really depends on how much more loot + emblems there will be in 25ers. i guess we’ll just have to wait and see. one point nobody made before it seems is though: for the average 10man you need: 2 tanks, 2 healers, 6 dps (with maybe a hybrid healer). in a 25man that’s still 2 tanks, and say 6 healers
so the average 25-guild is probably just like mine, there are a lot more dps per tank / healer than is needed for multiple 10mans, some weeks we can’t even set up two 10mans without alts, although there are about 35 guys lining up for 25man. and there is a general tank shortage on the whole server
but sure, that could change in cataclysm. it might be just the time to kick out the “worst” dps and leave them to find themselves a pug
Same loot = awesome for casual guilds struggling to get 25 people on regularly and geared up.
However, wheres the incentive to run a 25 man? sure its easier if someone DC’s, but the time wasted organising a 25 man, making sure everyone is buffed and ready to go…. im sure you waste more time doing this than one wipe/dc in a 10 man.
No more 40 mans no more 25mans …. are they trying to kill raiding?
Is it just me or does it seem like their trying to get more people leveling characters and not sitting in dalaran/raiding.
‘screw you, I’m playing Farmville’
/giggle (imagining hitting the level cap and going off to do some pvp on my neighbours’ farms…)
I totally agree with Arthemystia.
More time for my alt and main to run with 10 men.
I also got a little guild, so no more pug’s 25M.
“You can’t use 10-man teams to learn the encounters and work on gear for to help your 25-man.”
I think this is a big one. 25 man teams aren’t going to get to use 10 man runs as practice…which theoretically might slow down the race to the end a bit. When you raid, you raid….you don’t get a throwaway each week.
At first glimpse I’m thinking this change is positive for me. I’ve seen a lot of amazing players drop the last year due to burnout. This may help keep the game fun and not so consuming to people who actually enjoy their RL lives too.
If they increase the amount of loot enough I don’t think 25 mans will die. The big guys will still run those to gear up their guildies faster than everyone else so they can flex those gear/achievement/title e-peens.
Here is the reason it will kill 25 mans AS A GUILD RUN …. My wife and I run a progression raiding guild and the pain and effort into organizing a 25 man is a lot. I know for a fact that if the make those changes we will not go through all that for a chance at the same type of loot. This, in turn, will result in less and less membership in a guild. I’ll bet my last gold piece. Guild members will get tired of seeing and hearing about a particular group progressing so well while they are not or are struggling.
Just doesn’t make sense too me. One of WoW’s greatest attributes is the friendships and fun you have with other guild members during a raid and if raiding guilds end up doing just 10 man raids that will lesson the different people you run with on a weekly basis.
I’m disapointed in Blizz’s decision here. The whole 10m and 25m sharing a lockout just plain blows. I feel like Blizzard doesn’t even want us raiding. At least I have 2 well geared hunters that I will be able to run both versions of the content. All in all I think this is a mistake.
Well, I had a week to think about it and I actually think it it NOT such a big deal …
In fact, the whole dual concept is only there since WotlK and nothing more than an overshoot.
During vanilla rading was for teh very very very very … add some more very’s … happy few. We sometime sforget that. During BC they made raid groups smaller and added the LFG so PUG’s could try it or at least one could add PUG’s. Still many people never came further than Kara and Zul. 25 man is still hard to form outside raid guilds.
The concept of 10 mans and the easiness to get there made raids accessable to anybody. Blizzard then added the 10 and 25 concept to combine the easy access and
still keep the larger raids possible.
This got out of hand. People are now farming raids. We are talking about people who do one raid with their guild en then using PUG’s to do the previous ones and the other one to get a boss or two and some badges.
The idea that raid guilds do 10 and 25 man may be true for some guilds, but the overwelming mayority do only one serious a week and the rest is foolling around. Especially after a few weeks when progression is over.
I don’t see the issue. Hard code raiders will do progression and then switch to hard mode. No more free badges etc. Depending on holidays, size of guild, etc they can do 10 or 25 man, etc. No issue there.
There are very few guilds that actually do 10 and 25 man every week in parallel. Bad for those that do, but the ‘farming raids’ is just getting out of hand too.
loot incentives,
emblem incentives,
ilvl incentives,
legendary incentives,
even dkp incentives….
I think a lot of people talking about ‘incentives’ miss the boat. The real incentive is the pleasure gained from working together as a team to achieve a goal. I.e. actually raiding; I for one am not too concerned whether it’s 10/25 man content I’m doing (even 5-mans would be good if they were more of a challenge). In fact smaller raids with sub-second latency can even be more enjoyable sometimes, although the achievement does somehow seem more significant the more people that have been successfully coordinated.
I get the impression that Blizzard’s intent is to reduce the elitism that 25-man has over 10-man. On the whole, most of the proposed changes seem good.
The problem is with the shared LOCKout. Show me a 25-man guild that isn’t forced to bench some players at the start of raid-lockout. In the current environment, those players could get involved 10-man, and still join the 25-man later in the week. With the proposed changes, you can’t get saved to a 10-man, and you might still not get a spot in the 25-man later.
Personally, I think the biggest problem is that lockouts are per instance and not per boss.
I have a major issue with the lockout system in general anyway. Example: You get a 10 man pug group to do a raid, do to struggles you don’t complete it, or for some reason a toon gets dc’d. Then ONE person gets another pug together and they just want their frosties then all the others get the shaft. If ANYONE from that raid gets to complete it then EVERYONE that was part of the raid, whether or not they actually completed it is locked out. This almost caused me to leave my current guild and it has caused me to be VERY selective on who I will raid with. This definitely causes less enjoyment with a game IMO.
I guess the balancing factor is that when you get saved to a 10 or 25 in cata you can pick it up with a different raid ID as long as the combining raids downed the same bosses, and also the ability to split a 25 man raid into three (I believe) 10 mans to continue. Not as dire if you wipe a 25 when you could have done the 10 and gotten farther and gotten equivalent gear.