As many people noticed, I finally got my Stakethrower from the Blood Queen, which filled me with feelings of happiness and comfort.
However, the Stakethrower didn’t have as much raw dps as I remembered it having. So I was doing some calculations and discovered something disconcerting: Rowan’s Rifle of Silver Bullets is actually a DPS upgrade from the Stakethrower. Not a ton, mind you, only like 150 spreadsheet dps (which is lower in actuality), but an upgrade nonetheless. Despite the stat loss, Rowan’s has a lot more dps, and it’s a lot faster, which helps proc the T10 set bonus more often.
In fact, for me (as a proud dwarf), Rowan’s shows as only 37 dps (theoretical, so actually less) behind Zod’s with full raid buffs. We dwarves are just good with our guns.
So for those dwarves out there, Rowan’s looks to be the best gun in the game other than BRK-1000, and it’s boe, and available on the AH for a pretty cheap price. (Note: this is true for MM builds, which get more out of weapon dps — for SV it may not be the case.)
i hope you get the BRK1000, that an awesome gun. hoping on being lvl 80 with my hunter tomorrow and then im going to farm heroics all weekend, getting my gear assembled
Heh! I picked up a Rowan’s Rifle on the AH dirt cheap and was going to flip it, but then I hemmed and hawed for almost two weeks and finally decided to equip it on my hunter. I don’t do raids and rarely even run heroics, so I figured this was the best gun I was likely to get my hands on, even if it is a tank weapon. My final justification (apart from the massive DPS upgrade from my Nesingwary) is that it’s all hunter loot anyway, right?
I am waiting for one to show on the AH. I actually had an argument with a guy on trade chat who was selling one for 4k gold and WOULDN’T sell me the thing because I was a ‘noob huntard’ and ‘this was a tank gun’…….no amount of coaxing or explaining about the dps upgrade would get the bastage to sell it to me
Z’s spreadsheet indicates it will be an upgrade of over 250dps for me
I actually just picked this up on the AH last night, been sporting the Felglacier for quite sometime, did a quick dummy check and I was doing more DPS with it and in MM, so I guess now I’m hefting a Tank weapon and officially switching to MM at the same time.
this just apply to the 251 version right, cos i got the 264 one lastnight and it showed an upgrade for me on the 264 Zod’s longbow 3.00 sec speed sucks but did say 170dps upgrade on spreadsheets for me a lowly nelf. ah well al test it out this week see how i get on
I’m all for the “Pursuit of doing the most DPS possible, at any means necessary.” theory, but equipping a Tank gun(even if it’s a slight DPS increase)is sort of how we get the “Huntard” title.
Buuuuuut as usual, I trust Frost and value his opinion greatly. So as such I will definitely look into this on my own and see how much of an upgrade it might be for me. You have never steered me wrong Frost and I doubt you will now.
I was just having a discussion with a couple of guildies two nights ago about Rowan’s. One guildie, a non-Hunter, was mocking another Hunter he saw for having Rowan’s equipped and the other guildie in vent with us laughed.
I defended the Rowan’s-using Hunter with the argument that if a weapon has substantially higher DPS than their previous weapon, it’s a DPS upgrade despite the stats. It was argued against me (by a Warrior) that stats matter a lot more than DPS, an argument I firmly disagreed with under the position that for a Hunter, the weapon DPS matters an awful lot as many of our shots build of weapon damage.
I think the debate ended in a stalemate.
That said though, it would behoove any Hunter to seek out a better weapon ASAP so as to get some useful stats that actual scale with and benefit our talents.
I’d love to see Frost put up an article on wow.com showing that Rowan’s is the best weapon choice for hunters if they have the money. The internets might explode.
im a dwarf and the spreadsheet is showing a 70 dps loss from zods bow?
If stats are supposed to matter more than DPS for hunters, why do “they” always ask for dps when looking for group?
i meant that the tank gun is 70 dps less then zods bow
Had this argument on my server plenty of times. People just don’t realize that stats are a means to an ends(DPS) and that if something gives you more dps with full raid buffs, then it is better. I had to whisper each person i talked to individually, cause if you throw a bomb like that in trade, they will swarm you like piranhas.
It seems Shandara’s sheet and Zeherah’s sheet don’t agree on this. Shandara’s show’s Rowan’s as a loss, but Zeherah’s reports a gain. Conflicting information makes my head hurt.
I hope Zeherah’s is the accurate one. I desperately want to use a gun again.
This is interesting.
I did some initial dummy testing, and raid runs with Zod’s; I found it to be a dps loss from the Njordnar Bow.
I wanted (at the time) to chuck Zod’s in the forge fires of Home.
I had put that down to a loss of crit, and att power.
Guess I’ll try it again…back to the dummies…
Shafdars’s shows Rowan’s as a loss over what ? Zod’s ? Felglacier ? Stakethrower ?
As Deathbringer Saurfang says at the start of the fight….
“DWAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRVVVVVVVVVEEEESSSSSS”"
im laughing with you frost not at you
Sorry, Shandara’s shows Rowan’s as less dps than Zod’s and Stakethrower both. About 200 below Zod’s and 80 below Stakethrower. Zeherah’s shows Rowan’s as the highest of the three for me.
I also pulled up Frostheim with Shandara’s sheet and the ratings were comparable to what I got for my character. Again, Rowan’s was reported as lowest by a large margin there.
The more I think about it, the more I think Zeherah’s is correct. 1% crit is better than 32 agility, so it’s a question of if the faster weapon speed makes up for losing the Zod’s proc. I’m seeing about 1% of my dps come from that proc, so if Rowan’s results in T10 proccing noticeably more often, I could see that coming out ahead.
I get annoyed with pugs and WoW players when they see one stat and automatically categorize it as one spec or another. I got a lot of grief for needing an item with a little bit of Mp5 on it, as my mage once. It’s like.. dude… it has 15 more intellect, 10 more stam and 12 more spellpower than my current item. The fact that it has Mp5 on it doesn’t make it any less of an upgrade for me. *sigh*
Must Remember to buy a Rowan’s tonight, the price is going to explode once this gets around. Atm you can get one from between 3.5-4k gold on my server, my guess is that if hunters start equiping them, the price is gonna skyrocket to at least 9-10k.
I am so gonna be called a Noob, probably best to make a macro to refer ppl to this sight for info.
Why dont you just man up and go kill Anub on heroic.
Grats on your gun Frost!
To respond to a few comments: no stat is more important to a hunter than the DPS of their ranged weapon. It’s far, far bigger than any other stat, including hit rating.
Rowan’s is going to be a little bit behind Zod’s, but is really close — if you’re a dwarf, and if you’re MM and have dropped arcane from your rotation. If you aren’t a dwarf, Zod’s will be much farther ahead
As a dwarf hunter it irritates me that Blizzard puts tank/melee stats on guns. They added three guns in ICC (five if you count the heroic versions), and two of them (three if you count the heroic) are tank/melee weapons. They should be itemizing thrown weapons for that, and itemize the guns, bows, and crossbows for hunters.
Just do 10 man heroic Blood Queen. It’s really not a difficult fight at all, and you can get the 264 stakethrower
Would it be worth it for a Nelf, spec’d agility MM. using the felglacierbolter to pick the Rowan’s up? I do mostly 5-man heroic’s (can’t get into many Icc grps) so may never see an upgrade otherwise. I have 2 t-9, 1 t-10 so far. 627 imba, 5100 g.s.
As a dwarf hunter this is, quite frankly, humiliating. A craftable i264 engineering gun pattern purchased with Primordials for both a tank and a ranged DPS weapon would have been preferable. Since that isn’t going to happen, though, I will likely follow suit until Zod’s drops AND I win the roll.
I appreciate you posting this, though, since nobody would believe me when I told them that Rowan’s was a several hundred DPS upgrade for me. Now I have a reputable source to link.
@palris. Spreadsheet shows it as a downgrade for Nelf, MM.
Rowan’s dropped for me in a pug ICC run, and I on my tank alt, and I was the only one who could use it. The other tank was a DK, so they said that I could have it if I wanted it… but I had to equip it then and there. It was really hard but I did it.
On my server, that gun is already going for 10k on the AH tho.
*places Zod on the ground reverently*
/kneel
…I <3 mah bow. and mah pointy ears. grats though.
I went to Zeherah’s hunter dps(femaldwarf) and I see my dps actually going up by 278dps? Not entering a pet either. Weird. Which spreadsheet did you use? @Arriden
First time ever really using one, so I could be doing something wrong.
WHU guide on how to use spreadsheets: http://www.warcrafthuntersunion.com/2010/02/how-to-choose-gear-using-spreadsheets/
If you don’t have access to raiding weapons, Rowan’s is probably an upgrade for you regardless of spec. Zod’s is probably better for you regardless of spec, but Rowan’s is better than many pre-Zod ranged weapons. This is an instance where the spreadsheets will be good at determining which is best, and if you want to know which is best for you, use the spreadsheet guide linked above.
@palris
It may be an up. It depends on the gear you already have though. If you have 2 piece of t10, then go to femaledwarf.com and import your toon from the armory. put in your buffs and rotation, get your dps with current gear, then switch out the weapon and update the dps. Even though im a nelf it was still an up for me even over njordnar bone bow. So check it out, it is all pretty situational.
The biggest problem with this gun is that when you equip it, you’ll be endlessly called a huntard. Just look at wowhead at tghe comments … ;-(
That said, it is most likely the best upgrade for any non-raiding hunter.
However for raiders I’m confused. For me it is a dps loss both with 25 man bufs as no buffs at all compared to my Onxy25 gun …
So hunters be alert, Frost situation is very unique I’m afraid …
Frost I know you’re anti-bow, but would you take a bow if it was an upgrade? Your line when discussing Beast Mastery is that whilst BM Hunters may be able to pump out good DPS, you’re all about pumping out the MOST dps. Surely you’d drop a gun for a bow if it upped your numbers?
Gaeb
I am a nelf MM , 5.1 gs , was using the tank gun but got felglacierbolter and it’s giving me more dps in 5 man heroics, I love the gun and had to defend it many times , Im keeping it on me just in case my gear etc changes.
An added bonus is that gun has a bunch of stamina and as Kruff pointed out he needed the four piece T10 for the higher ilvl and stamina to survive the Lich King encounter. This will allow you to keep the 2 T9/T10.
Not to mention you’ll be even more OP on soloing escapades!
Ok thats really interesting Frost basically if your a dwarf and mm specced you will almost get as much dps as Zods Reapeating Longbow which is currently the highest geared hunter ranged weopan in wow. Now as Frost said Dwarf get 1% crit racial for guns and the mm talent build gives more dps to the ranged weopan they are using putting Rowans Rifle of Silver bullets ( tanking Gun ) in 2nd place, i have seen them going for about 6-7k on my server but always thought of them as a tanking weopan. Not sure if I could put up with the huntard comments and have to explain myself everytime I turn up for a raid maybe I will grab 1 and just make a macro explaining why as theres nothing closer to a dwarf hunters heart than dps.:)
Gaeb – Frost has answered that same question many times by now. The answer is always something to the effect that he realizes everyone has little quirks about how they like to play, and even in a raid setting those things can be happily tolerated and accepted. But by “little,” we’re talking 1-2% dps loss…and by the looks of the numbers Frost posted, we’re actually talking about well under 1%. Negligible amounts for the sake of playing how you want to play. The BM vs. MM discussion dealt with numbers that, at best for BM hunters were at 15%, and as much as 30% depending on the fight and gear level….enough that you can see the tangible and negative affects on total raid dps. So it’s just a difference of scale.
Besides, for all of Frost’s devotion to dps, we can surely allow him a couple RP elements (albeit irrational ones :-p ), no?
Aye, so refusing to kneel before Zod is something like a 0.3% dps loss.
Yeah, I think I need a macro that says something like:
Yes, I am using a “Tank” gun, it is an overall DPS upgrade, if you would like you can pull the info into the spreadsheet at http://www.femaledwarf.com/ and see for yourself, my other option is Felglcaier Bolter, if you would like I can equip that and do less DPS, but use an universally approved “Hunter” weapon.
Spent a good 15-20 min explaining/convincing a guildie that it is an upgrade… Can’t wait until I try to get a PUG…
Far as I can see (using the spreadsheet but changing my race) Rowan’s is only a marginal difference from Zod’s if you’re a dwarf, whereas Zod’s is quite a bit ahead if you are a troll (like myself), due to the racials.
But I could be doing it wrong.
Sounds about right to me. Zods is also significantly ahead if you’re not a dwarf.
“but Rowan’s is better than many pre-Zod ranged weapons”
I just had to recheck because I didn’t remeber it being that great, but an upgrade to my Death’s Head crossbow. With my gear setup I have both the Bone Bow and Stakethrower (251) versions as more dps than Rowan’s. And yes I have 2 piece T10!
Deleting this from mine bookmarks.
Was really nice thing while was going but stuff like this only make more and more bad hunters. Whats going to be next?
And I am dwarf hunter and TANKING gun shows lose over both Zod and Stake(10man normal one) for me. And yes I know how to use femaledwarf.com.
This is a perfect example of how your *gear*, and not just your talents, affect what gear is better for you. I’m MM with around 650 ArP, and don’t use arcane in my standard rotation — and the spreadsheets show Rowan’s as more than 100 dps better than Stakethrower.
An agility MM might get different results, and SV might get different results — and even a ArP MM hunter might show different results if they have different gear (or don’t have all the raid buffs).
This is why gear lists are so dangerous — what is an upgrade for one person might not be an upgrade for another person even within the same spec.
Believe me when I say I would not run around with a tanking gun if it was a dps downgrade from the gun I was using. And I can assure you that it’s not
WHAT?! AN ILVL 264 GUN IS BETTER THAN ILVL 251 GUN?! THATS MADSAUCE. Idiots.
I personally think that the only way for Frost to get people to shut up about this is to post the numbers he gets from the spreadsheets. Btw grats on the gun, I plan on picking it up myself to hold me over until I get Zod’s
I see it this way.
If you’re taking raiding seriously, and you do find that this gun is an upgrade, the only people you need to convince are your team members. More often than not, you may find they know more than you think. In this case, there’s no problem, especially if your record speaks for itself.
If you’re not raiding regularly, doing mostly heroics and pugging the occasional raid, life could get very painful for you. I’m not sure the DPS increase you can squeeze out of this is worth the misery. It’s a significant DPS increase for Frost because of his ArP spec and build, but it matters much less if you’re wearing mostly 232 level stuff.
I got this myself about a week ago, I only have non-raiding gear since I don’t raid.. And this was a really nice upgrade for me, got it for about 3k in AH (will probably start buying it for reselling now if I’m not too late).
I actually like it a lot for the hilarity of the stats. Doing random daily produces nerd rage from my random groupmates anyway on everything but usually targeting tank or healer and never being constructive. So I don’t mind when I get the huntard abuse for having the gun equipped, it’s actually pretty damn funny.. But maybe that’s just me.
I am still waiting for one to show up on the Lethon Alliance AH. I will have lots of fun in pugs with the ‘huntard’ comments
I will just ask someone to put up recount and post the numbers after the first boss fight ! Or…..make a bet with the top geared dps in the group about who can pull ag off the tank quickest 
Happily I did not have to convince team members (not that it would be hard — the conversation would be “This is actually an upgrade” “Oh”). However, I bought Rowan’s.
Our raid usually sells BoEs that are not BiS. Technically this isn’t a BiS (’cause the bow is) so I didn’t feel I could claim the drop. But they’re pretty cheap on the AH on my server these days.
I upgraded from the Nesingwary to Rowan’s and haven’t received any huntard comments because of it. I’m a dwarf MM spec with an average iLvl of 236. According to female dwarf, Zod’s 264 is a 128 dps upgrade over Rowan’s with my currnet gear. Playing around with gear, this is attributable to my low iLvl. I’ll be keeping Rowan’s until I can get Zod’s 277 bow.
My profile on female dwarf: Frestal from Trollbane (alliance)
Great article!
Reminds me of the other day when I was in a random and the others insisted that I should be using the haste scope instead of the crit scope. Fools.
I’m gonna go for it myself; Zeherah’s shows it as a 76 dps upgrade for me (better than Njorndar and Stakethrower). Plus, I’m tired of running around with what looks like a level 10 gun.
I’ve had a great big huge ammo pouch just waiting for a decent gun for this Dwarf hunter.
Now I’ma see if I can’t get my hands on a tank gun!
/lol
/dance
RNG is tha shit, but you can always trust a good jinx. I went out and bought myself Rowans as soon as I read this post. I was tired of waiting for RNG to work in my way for once. I enetered ICC25, a bit shamful I waited until I thought no one was looking, after first boss, and then I equiped the gun instead of my x-bow. Guess what dropped on Lady D? Zod’s ofc, and for once I was lucky enough to win the roll… So now I got a great ranged and all it costed me was 4000g i jinx money
“This is why gear lists are so dangerous — what is an upgrade for one person might not be an upgrade for another person even within the same spec. ”
This was the point I was trying to make (badly done…maybe I need to simplify and say it straight and not let people think about what I am saying). I am ArP build agi stacking MM hunter with 500 ArP. The only thing I could attribute to the difference was Frost’s extra ArP making the white damage much stronger.
I have never worried about ammo in my gear simulations; but this made me reconsider…so I reworked my char sheet. I expected Rowan’s to be closer but the difference stayed the same…however my Death’s Head gat closer.
@ Arthemystia (and Frost) – Hahah yes by all means, Frost’s RP idiosynchrasies are fine. I’m Australian, so pretty much everything I say is tongue-in-cheek
And if I stir you about the DPS loss on the gun Frost, make sure you give it back to me for accidentally falling off the Gunship in front of our whole 25 man team the other night while eating. Vent erupted with a chorus of laughs
Gratz on the gun mate.
I’m also an Agility gemmed MM Dwarf Hunter with a tad over 500 ArPen and when I ran Rowan’s through Zeherah’s I get a 235.58 increase (vs. 233.7 for Zod’s and 898.87 for the Stakethrower).
Time to see if there are any Rowan’s left on the AH.
Well i purchased Rowans Rifle last night on grizzly hills for 6k gold and I can tell you im one happy customer however I have been stuck with Felglacier bow of Eck for ages and never seem to see the bow drop on my main hunter in 10 or 25 man however i did pick up the whispering fang trinket which was nice. Yet my other hunter scored the bow really easy so I guess alot of it is the luck of RNG but finally this dwarf has a gun again and is extremely satisfied and cant wait to try it out this weekend in ICC .
Got one off trade chat yesterday
The first thing I noticed (after the very satisfying BANG sound instead of the silly twang of Felglacier) was that “Exploit weakness” seemed to proc a whole lot more and I was able to knock down the ads on Lady D a whole lot faster. There were a few “WTF are you doing with a tank gun Omo ?” comments from my mates when we started pulling trash, but that changed to “nice dps” comments pretty fast.
I’m a happy dwarf
Typo on my previous post, Stakethrower was only 98, not 898!
That is a very strange upgrade. Anyways, I’ve got one on the Horde AH on US-Blade’s Edge if anyone wants to pick it up. I’m SV and my math actually shows its a downgrade from the ilvl 232 gun that drops from Ony.
After a few data pulls on FemaleDwarf, it seems that as one’s ArmorPen increases, your DPS loss by continuing to use Rowan’s also increases.
I’m just not seeing how anyone who’s asked to bring the most he/she can to a raid would honestly pass over Zod’s for a tanking weapon.
It’s a slippery slope, and as I heard once on a Podcast, if you start slipping on one thing, then it’s easy to begin slipping on others.
*sigh* A bit off topic, but I won the roll on a felglacier bolter on a heroic PoS the other day and rawr shows it to be a significant upgrade from my Nesingwary. I know my dps has increased, but without the bang.. it just ‘feels’ lower. lol. Maybe I’ll buy me a ‘tanking’ gun.
@Dionys, as he posted before, it’s a measurable 0.3% dps, and a conscious decision. I have full confidence that if there were a bow that did 10% more dps, frost would either grudgingly switch.. or camp blizzard headquarters until they put an equivalent gun in the game. lol
Dionys: The point here is that this is the best weapon available to lots of folks and just because it has “tank stats” does not make it a bad choice. Femaledwarf indicated that it would be an almost 300dps increase over my Felglacier Bolter. It also beats out the non heroic version of Zod’s by over 30 dps for my gear and spec. I would love to have the heroic version of Zod’s but am not likely to see the heroic 25 man ICC for quite a while. I’m not likely to even see the non-heroic Zod’s. Why should I therefore not grab a 300dps increase ?
@Chimy: It just seems silly to constantly espouse, “not bringing players who make a conscious decision to undermine their dps,” and then point out that taking a dps downgrade is better because…Zod is a bow. Small or not (Female D shows a bit more than 0.3%; however, probability is anything but *certain*) that choice, is a very slippery slope.
@Omo: Unfortunately O, you’re making an apples to friendship bracelet comparison. I mean…all things being…wait…forget that bit.
My point Omo is that w/o a doubt, I would tell ANY hunter to pick up a tanking gun if said gun was 32 ilvls above their current weapon…of course that will increase your dps. I was trying to make an apples to apples, or ilvl 264 to 264 comparison.
Coming from a raid lead and GM’s pov, if you’re in front of Arthas and you’re NOT maximizing your output, then you are wasting the time of the 24 others who are. That is a slap in the face to your raid and your teammates…because you want a weapon that goes “bang.”
Agreed
If I can get a weapon that does more damage I will happily take it and won’t care if it goes “ouch” every time I fire. I am however quite happy to have a new gun
what your saying is that your going to wear a skirt even if your a male just because it’s warmer?..this site used to be my bible, but now it makes me QQ…when i started reading everything on your site i was doing less damage than my pet…and after i read everything i’ve been improving and now i’m in the top guild on my server….what i’m saying is that your site helped me a lot when i was a bad…but it stops helping after i’m mediocre……tbh, i think it’s time to explore the world…of warcraft…with your knowledge you should be in a better guild( i dont’ mean like top 100 guilds but at least a guild that killed the lich king in 25 man) or a high pop server with more competitions so you have a shot at getting bis gears…you still have more knowledge and skills compare to me, but i’m in a better position than you…why? because i moved on…and i think you should,too…especially when you have a site all about our class, you need to have a wider audience than noob and mediocre players…right now your basically saying that A car is faster than B car just from looking at the spec…but you haven’t test drive and compare these 2 cars…
Wearing a skirt….? That analogy passed me by. I mean… if it’s functionally superior (warmer when it’s cold out, etc) then why wouldn’t you? I don’t see your point there.
My primary criteria for a raid team is people that I like hanging out with. I disagree with the notion that you have to be in a top raiding guild to be a good player, or know how to be a good player. Hunter skills and knowledge are not based on gear or kills (though admittedly some of it changes based on gear).
Information on the WHU is based on data, math, and testing. I am not ArP capped so I cannot test ArP capped specs myself. I can however do the math for it, and observe the data from thousands of raid parses. This is, frankly, more conclusive stuff than if I hit the target dummies with my own hardcap build (unless of course I could bring my whole raid team with again).
Some of the information on the WHU is targeted at beginning hunters. Some of it is targeted at only progression raiding hunters. But most of it is applicable to all pve hunters, whatever it is you are doing.
I suppose my point is if you think that WHU advice is no longer applicable to becoming the best hunter you can — we can discuss what information you can think is incorrect. Debates on data and science I love. But if you’re suggesting that because I’m not in a higher-end guild the information is therefore incorrect whatever it says, then we disagree.
I wonder if twocents mugs Topper McNab for giggles…
I moving through what could be termed the “advanced/intermediate” phase of Hunter ability at present, and raid ICC10/25 regularly (I share top Hunter spot with one other in our Guild): Haven’t hit any advice here that has held me back; My dps output has steadily increased, as well as my grasp of movement (jump-shot kiting ftw!!).
And it’s a lot easier to digest WHU than going to Elitist jerks, and wading through…well…the elitist jerks…
I have to admit I’m a gun snob myself. I’m very unhappily using a crossbow right now because I couldn’t justify the dps loss of using the stakethrower. I’m willing to give up a small amount of dps for dwarven pride, but 150dps was a bit much. Hopefully soon I’ll get a heroic stakethrower and I can put the silly crossbow back in the bank where it belongs!
With regards to Rowans, it’s amazing how many people make snap judgements on it without looking at the details. It’s likely to be a bigger upgrade for MM specs than SV, since MM gets far more dps from weapon damage than SV does. It’s also more likely to be an upgrade if you can make use of the hit on it. But the dps on it is high and the speed definitely helps with 2pc T10 uptime, so for many folks it’s a solid gear choice. I do feel bad for the folks who have to deal with the tank gun prejudice.
I found the resistance to Frost’s assertion about this tanking gun a bit funny. If the tanking gun is a marked dps increase for one’s character, there is no reason to say it would be a bad choice for that person to use the gun. The hunter’s role in raids is to make go boom boom; make go boom boom all over the boss’s face and upper neck region. There are no points for style, fashion, or e-peen girth.
Well I went to ICC on the weekend with my new Rowans Rifle of Silver Bullets and I kicked butt and was imprressed to see the increase in my dps compared to weeks before this gun was a major upgrade compare to the Felglacier crossbow I was currently using. Before anyone in my raid asked me about the gun I quickly said a few words to why I am using it but since I am normally the highest dpser in our guild I don’t get questioned alot as they know I know my stuff thanks to this site . The best thing was it pushed my dps higher than before and I also had our warrior tank drooling over it so the huntard comments never came out With the longstrider chest peice and the gun it seemed that i made a 500dps increase in my overall dps so this dwarf is certainly one extremely happy hunter thanks for the big tip Frost its gratefully appreciated .
Like Fradin said, WAY better than my Felglacier crossbow!
Thanks Frost, WHU yet again gave me info and made me a better hunter!
Its nice to be proved right even if a little late. I was toting Rowan’s for a long time and had already satisfied myself in dummy tests and real world fights that it scored in turns of outputs, which is what really matter. But I did have a few fights with gear snobs who mocked a hunter porting a tank gun (though btw often these same snobs choose everything on gear score…where Rowan’s to their confusion also hits very hard)
I got Zod’s and being a dwarf gnome engineer and thus able to provide free ammo my dwarf frugality won out over my gun love. In terms of DPS it feels pretty much like a tie.
However.. I’m now a wood and string convert. The reason? Peace and quiet. You only notice the din a gun makes once you stop using one. Soloing is now a lot more tranquil and I am starting to get annoyed by pesky people with guns banging off all the time in raid with all the ardour of a reformed ex-smoker. Dont they realise people are trying to concentrate fgs!
So if you have any influence with Bliz, please can you suggest a guns only upgrade for Cat. A “silencer”, that gives something like +50 crit and a chance to dispel/silence and btw stops guns banging on. (In a perfect world it could only be made by dwarf gnome engineers using 100 saronite bars and 50 eternal fires and 50 bonescale snappers so we can do something useful with the stuff we find while waiting for pug raids to fill)
sigh…all i’m trying to say is you deserve a better position so that you can expand your knowledge…again…what i said before…right now your basically saying that A car is faster than B car just from looking at the spec…but you haven’t test drive and compare these 2 cars…or if you want me to say it in another way…your basically saying this drug is going to cure cancer because of some sort of theory and calculation but you’ve never actually tested it…or to simplify things…your saying lakers is going to win the champion because of blah blah blah…what i’m trying to say is that sometimes you really have to get your hands on it to feel what it’s like…and if your given the chance why not go for it…also about the skirt thing…i guess it was a bad example since your don’t really care about your looks and what you wear…but ya i do…so my bad…could of used a better example…but you know what i mean…it’s like saying that being gay is ok to gays compare to saying it to rednecks…
Rowan’s may be on purpose, but is the use of the terrible T9 gloves? The use of the EoF chest? For someone as “devoted” to maximum DPS and analytics as you claim to be, you’d think you’d be able to find the several hundred DPS worth of upgrades you could make by switching between T9 and T10 pieces, replacing your Hit gems by using Band of the Night Raven and Wodin’s…
Incorrect — 2 T9 + 2 T10 is *much* more dps for a MM hunter until you can get both the all ilvl 264 t10 and specific other gear to support it. Especially after patch 3.3.3 boosted the already awesome t9 set bonus even further.
Also, for my set up it’s better to have the hit gems and be using ArP gear — at least until I can get some drops with hit on them
Keep in mind, the itemization budget is *identical* whether your hit comes from gear or gem sockets — the “cost” of that hit rating is the same 
Well, yes, you do need 2t9 and 2t10. But the ideal setup for Marks is T9 helm and pants, T10 shoulders and chest, and EoF gloves.
I actually made the swaps for you on the spreadsheet and yeah, it’s like a 300 DPS upgrade.
You’re absolute correct, 2p T9 and 2p T10 is a massive upgrade – when the correct pieces are used. T9 Helm and Pants, T10 Shoulders and Chest.
And funny, when I do some fiddling around with your gear in Zeherah’s, I can find some significant gains by replacing your gems with Agi gems and regearing for Hit elsewhere. Of course, the biggest gain you can make is replacing the gems and then using more points in Focused Aim…
Unless your “scientific approach” eschews simulator/spreadsheet use, of course.
I use spreadsheets as one data point, but you have to understand that spreadsheets are not gospel, and understand what they’re good at and what they’re bad at.
I was unable to replicate your findings even on the spreadsheets — I’m not sure what settings you’re using, but with my typical raid setup I’m still confidant in my setup and my upgrade path. I’d recommend this guide on understanding spreadsheets and all the way in which they are and are not accurate: http://www.warcrafthuntersunion.com/2009/12/understanding-spreadsheets/
Your current setup, with best raid buffs: http://www.femaledwarf.com/?setting_id=107685 – 11405.27 simulated DPS
My altered setup, with same buffs/rotation: http://www.femaledwarf.com/?setting_id=107687 – 11706.18 simulated DPS
And I love how you always maintain that “spreadsheets aren’t gospel”, but never defend anything you write – WoW.com or on here – with any sort of logic, mathematics, or anything defensible, really.
Of course, that said, if you are unable to realize that while a spreadsheet-listed gain may be less in reality than it is on the spreadsheet but is very likely to still be a net gain, well… it’s pretty damn sad that WoW.com is paying you to basically spread misinformation.
Okay, I see what you did there — you upgraded the ilv 245 neck to a ilvl 264 neck in addition to switching the tier pieces — that’s where the dps gain is coming from. Also, I prefer to use settings that more accurately resemble a dps race boss fight (the default spreadsheet setting you use are not terribly accurate). Thus I usually model a 5 minute fight with around 0.8 min in kill shot range (since we know the last 20% of the fight usually takes a lot less than 20% of the time — so 0.8 min is still pretty generous).
I think the real advantage of switching tier gear around is push the ArP rating higher, coming close to those exponential returns, which I may consider at some point as my gear improves.
I don’t *usually* post the math for posts or guides for the simple reason that it’s insanely boring and very, very few people want to read that stuff. They just want the answers, not the process. However I do post the math and data collection methodology from time to time on controversial things (like the BM dps debate).
I’m always happy to discuss (or ‘defend’) guides — if a fan has a better way of doing things, I want to know it — I want to do more dps too after all! However, I do not respond to “Lol ur rong” (in whatever form), Ad hominim arguments, or flat contradictions without any data or math to support them. If someone disagrees and shows their math (or if they use spreadsheets, link to their math) then we can have a discussion. If someone just say “ur rong” I’m not wasting my time
I just bought this rifle today, but I still got my questions about it, I am a Night Elf Hunter with 4 pieces of my T-10 (at 251 still) and I am using Njondar Bone bow. My question is if I will see an increase in my DPS with this rifle if I change? My spec is MM, but Armor Pen. I guess I should give it a try and see what’s up, otherwise well, I lost 3k worth of gold and I have to work it again.
Hello, Frostheim!
I believe I could also ask for an advise concerning range weapons. I was actually aiming for Stakethrower as it’s been a long time I used guns and this gun is also unique in ICC. But last week I got Fal’inrush which I was of course pretty happy about. And yes, after I got it – ranged weapons rain started to fall onto my head (why not before when I was hunting for them?!): I saw 264 Lady’s bow, then 264 Stakethrower that I passed and several days later Zod’s 277 goes to me as the only raid hunter. But Rawr actually shows dps DECREASE if I change Fal’inrush 271 for Zod’s 277. I checked that in Shandara spreadsheet (femaledwarf.com) and again saw a bit less but still decrease. Feeling disappointed as I paid gear points for both of them within 7 days and it seems Zod’s 277 is worse and going to the bank shelf. Did you try to calculate that? I’d be grateful for an opinion as I don’t see any argumented discussion over Fal’inrush vs. Zod’s heroic. I keep wondering what to use.
I found your blog and been reading it for a while. You provide both knowledge and laugh that are so much appreciated
Kallessin /EU-Dunemaul
Alas, there goes my saving-for-epic-flight fund again. Got this for 2.5k on my main (BElf). I don’t raid, or even do many dungeons unless they’re just me and a pet, but after reading this I did the homework and found it would be a 250-ish dps increase even WITHOUT a scope. Sold. Shortly thereafter a friend invited me to his guildie random run and we got PoS – and the felglacier bolter dropped. All 4 of them insisted I take it, and I could just imagine their concerned eyebrows worrying about this poor little noobtard and her big tanky gun. Despite the 86dps loss of the bow.
I’m torn between a)pointing my big tanky non-raiding gun at anyone who calls me a noobtard b)equipping a bow that does less damage just to demonstrate my point. *sigh* Think I’ll stay with the gun though. Bang bang.