Ghostcrawler responds to some hunter questions about BM hunters. Some of my thoughts and comments after the quote:
If you’re talking best possible gear, we think BM is pretty close to Survival in 3.3.3. Marks is ahead, and that’s largely a function of armor pen, but again you are talking about absolute best gear. If you aren’t in Icecrown 25 hard modes, then gear is likely to have just as much effect on your damage as spec. Ideally, things are balanced at all levels between level 1 and 80 with BiS gear, but there are going to be a lot of points along the way where that’s probably not true. We see Survival hunters beat Marks hunters all the time in what I would categorize as average (meaning not server first guilds but capable of progressing) raids. Hopefully we’ll see some BM guys up there too, but it may take higher gear levels.
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I would be pretty surprised if guilds doing hard modes w/ access to lvl 80 BiS gear have hunters raiding as BM, or would be happy with a hunter choosing a spec that isn’t min/max’d.
My suspicion is that the hunters with the gear you are describing will have a propensity to go Marks, because that currently yields the highest damage and raiders tend to play whatever does the highest damage. In a world without armor pen, that might not be the case (though I haven’t done the math lately).
Nonetheless, it is also true today that Marks can beat Survival, and yet there are a lot of Survival hunters raiding. Our hope is that in 3.3.3 that there will be as many BM hunters as Survival raiding, which would be a really nice bump for BM. Maybe the estimates (ours and those I’ve read) about the boost BM is getting are overly optimistic. We’ll see.
It’s possible the Survival hunters are only going Survival for Replenishment, though all 3 hunters bring some pretty solid raid benefits these days.
So, back when I did the whole “Can BM Raid?” article that caused such a fuss, I had some evil plans for a sequel. The idea was to show that BM can indeed meet the dps check of ICC with enough gear (thus technically viable) but also to highlight how much dps you give up to get there.
The original plan was to follow-up a week or so later with “Can Survival Raid?” This was the evil part. Because the general consensus in the hunter community at the time was the SV and MM were viable, MM was best, and BM was not viable. The idea was that if you define “viable” as able to meet the minimum dps requirements, BM was fine. But if your definition of “viable” was not giving up over 1,000 dps, then SV wasn’t viable either with good gear. For various reasons the SV article didn’t get written, and I’m thinking I probably won’t be doing it.
But back to these posts, I’m not really certain what Ghostcrawler is seeing from the PTR buffs that I’m not, unless I missed another update somewhere. So far the only dps buff to BM is a flat 9% damage increase to Steady Shot (since the 3% damage FI buff existed before with basically 100% uptime — even if you didn’t have a ret pally or arcane mage). A 9% Steady Shot buff translates into about a 1.5% overall buff to BM, once you factor in percentage of damage from hunter, and percentage of hunter damage from Steady Shot.
I don’t think there’s anyone out there — even the most fanatic BM hunters — who reasonably thinks that BM is only 1.5% behind. I’ve tried spreadsheets. I’ve tried looking at all the top raid parses (people in best gear pre-heroic modes), and I even took my entire 25-man raid team to the target dummies to comparison test with mid-level gear. I’ve literally tried to get BM to be closer in dps, but the closest I can come was 15% behind (behind MM, that is) with mid-level (250ish) gear.
Don’t get me wrong, I’ve seen BM put out nice dps numbers. When my raid hit the target dummies I was in the top 5 dpsers as BM, but still over 1,500 dps behind MM. Of course what I didn’t test was how far SV was behind MM with that mid-level gear, but I do suspect the gap between SV and BM at mid-level is a lot more than 1.5%. We know it’s bigger at lower level gear. But I haven’t researched or tested that. Maybe that should be next.
I suspect that we will not be seeing a significant increase in the number of raiding BM hunters. The ones that raid as BM now will continue to do so. The ones that aren’t willing to give up over a thousand dps to raid as BM still won’t be willing to give up over a thousand dps to raid as BM. BM needs a bit more lovin’ Blizz!
Hello,
> But if your definition of “viable” was not giving up over
> 1,000 dps, then SV wasn’t viable either with good gear.
I’m Survival with a decent 251-264 gear. We are trying Lich King in 25/10 raid. I’m not agree with you. Many survival do not know how to play the spec. Position and movement is the key
In real raid, I’m often 1st DPS Hunt in raid.
The problem I’ve got with the BM rotation is it feels like facerolling to me. I’m SV right now, and I’ve got to pay attention to what’s going on with my attacks, what’s available, etc.
With MM, it looks like it’s the same thing, lots of different abilities queuing off of each other.
But the BM shot rotation (from the guide on this very site) is:
Serpent Sting
Arcane Shot
Steady Shot/Aimed Shot until Arcane is recharged.
With only 3-4 abilities to work with, that’s really boring. For me, at least, YMMV
I do wish BM was more interesting/viable, as I wish I could have them cool pets in raids… They are so cool looking!
But with only 5 slots to play with, I don’t feel like I can make room for a vanity pet 
Perhaps controversially I would personally like to see BM made more into tanking class, forget this half way house trying to make it catch-up on the DPS meters. We have 2 other specs that do more DPS why on earth must we need a 3rd (the more this is pushed the more we become one trick ponies)
In my humble opinion Pet Tanking has been proved to work and given some attention from Blizz would work even better in more challenging content, Druids and Pala’s can heal, dps & tank, Shaman, Priests, Warriors can perform dual function, it would give BM the worth (it already has the tools to a large degree) which people seem to crave. Obviously the people who are happy to do less DPS endgame may not want to tank (they will never be appeased Frost no matter how carefully you word your articles following BMGate) but it would certainly ignite a bit more interest in the spec and make it have a specific job that MM & SV couldn’t perform. So there’s my 2 pence worth and before I’m royally shot down in flames I used to be a long term BM hunter, I see it as a fantastic leveling spec which helped keep my interest in the game, I admit I had a pixel affinity with my pet but end game I don’t understand why a spec with a watered down rotation and shots available should output the same/more dps than the other 2 specs to which I feel have more to consider and learn about them.
Thanks for all your efforts that go into this site & much hunter love to all.
@Veldrin – I think you missed the point of what he was saying. Frost was not trying to say that Surv is bad, but that if you are going to define “raid viable” by saying that another spec does more, then survival is in fact behind and “not raid viable”. Regardless of whether you top the meters or not, at our gear level, with so much ArPen (a stat that Surv gets little mileage out of compared to MM or even BM) an equivalently geared/skilled MM hunter will beat you.
@Zully – As much as I would love to have more pet tanking tools at my disposal and as much as I love extreme soloing and the thought of one day getting to pet tank for a group, It just isn’t going to happen. Blizzard is pretty obvious in their intent for the hunter class as a pure DPS class.
The more time that goes by the more I don’t miss BM. This makes me sad too because I really love big red, I really love spirit beasts, I really love having some truly unique pets in a game dominated by wolves, where exciting means you tamed the wolf from ramps or your wolf summons as a slightly different color each time (grey, dark grey or black).
I just find myself not switching to BM nearly as much, even for PvP I am staying in my PvE marks build. I even trashed by BM gearset because it was just so far behind and I was tired of managing two sets and using up precious bag slots.
Thank you for writing a practical, well-thought post on the current state of BM that doesn’t boil down to “BM sucks lol”. It is much appreciated.
I’ve stated it before somewhere on this site what I think BM should become which is very different from what it is now. Personally (anyone is welcome to disagree) I believe BM should be either 1 of three things.
One would be similar to the old movie and TV series “Beast Master” where the hunter would be able to have 3 types of pets out at one time, maybe just 2. Such as; Feroicty, Tenacity, and Cunning or a comboination of 2 if it was just 2. Also that being the case the hunter would fight along side his/her companions. Not just shooting from a distance but actually Melee. Utilizing attacks that bring the companionship of the hunter and pets to one massive impact. The closer the hunter and pets are together, the higher their DPS would be. And yes in that case BM Hunters would not be able to wear Mail, they would benefit more from Leather (opinion of course).
Another one I believe BM Hunters should become, and I’m sure other people have thought the same with all their Hunters. Is that the BM Hunter would be utilizing his/her pet as mount. Mounted Combat. The two are suppose to be fighting as one so make it where they can. Of course this also means that a BM Hunter more like the Knights of lore. Melee combat mainly so the pet can attack as well, only range attack would be shooting their Bow/Gun/Crossbow if they are on the move. Maximizing the DPS output if they are fighting as one. This also means that the hunter can send his/her pet in on a charge and the hunter can stay back and shoot but that DPS increase would only be for a very brief duration before the pet returns and the hunter is mounted again.
The third is a little more far fetched but similar to the Demonology Warlocks. BM Hunters would be able to “Merge” with his/her pet to become either a Heavy Melee or Devistating Range. This of course would be viable for a tanking spec as well if “Merged” with a Tenacity pet.
Many different options Blizzard can run through to make BM more fun to play instead of using a BM Hunter as a Ultra Rare Tamable Pet Collecter.
I forgot to mention that all of that would only change in Cataclysm. Way too much to do for a simple patch. It would have to be a complete Overhaul.
Time and time again i see SV hunters outdpsing MM hunters. Most of those times at the same gear level. In some extreme cases 2pcT9 SV hunters still kicked full T10 MM hunter’s ass.
Spreadsheet DPS, while helpful as a guide, is quite different then the DPS i see on the game.
Anyway i don’t mind when you say BM sucks, but i’d strongly advise against trashing SV hunters as being not viable.
Good article
I raid as MM and I have BM as it’s the spec that brought me back to WoW. Plus those 2 spirit beasts are too nice to lock away long term. But the reality is I should be grabbing SV to help my poor 10man raid out when, as so often, it has no replenishment.
Panzer, not everyone is saying thta SV is bad just that MM hunters, when played correctly will out DPS SV hunters in end game gear. Now, SV hunters will do more DPS in full T10 and MM hunters will do more DPS in 2 T9 and 2 T10. If a hunter is playing in full T10 then I don’t believe they understand their spec that well. Unless something has changed with the set bonuses that I haven’t seen. But the numbers that Frost has shown on this site supports this. The best Skill level hunter in the BiS gear, 1 MM and 1 SV…the MM hunter will get best DPS, SV hunter should NOT be too far behind if the player knows what they are doing. Again, the MM hunter who knows how to play will win out as of right now.
The good MM hunter when played right can out dps even good SV hunters in better gear. (I’ve done it). It’s not that SV aren’t viable, they are, they just don’t put up better numbers than MM.
My BM spec for burst damage (using it for pvp) has even taken a dive. I’ve gone MM and can put up SIGNIFICANTLY more burst. Granted I don’t get the CC abilities of Bestial Wrath but the burst is SO GREAT you really can’t pass it up.
All I want really is BM to be a viable spec SOMEWHERE. It doesn’t have to be the best raid or even viable raid spec if it’s the best pvp spec. It’s not even that anymore.
Of course, speaking from cynic central, there’s another way to interpret GC’s wish. With the buff to Frost Mage DPS we may see Frost Mages taking up the “argh, we need more replenishment” spot that MM/SV hunters find themselves pushed into, hence reducing the number of raiding SV to closer to raiding BM…
We had a MM pug in our 25 man this week. He had way better gear than I so I was ready to be #2 since I’m SV.
When it came down to it, I beat him on every fight, even trash. All I can assume is he had no clue what was going on or he just switched and was learning since I beat him by 3,000 DPS. On a side not too, I do on average 1,000-1,500 more DPS than the spreadsheet.
I’d love to try my BM off spec in a 25 raid if I didn’t have to re gem everything….
I hope I’m not the only one disturbed by that dude up there named Frostryder. Let’s all just assume it’s a coincidence.
Points to Zully for saying BM should be a full tanking spec. I’d pass out in glee.
Yeah…. it’s a little disconcerting to have the Devs note that they’re “estimating” the increase “optimistically” when, really, the changes they’re implementing are really easy to examine and draw the conclusion that the “buff” is pretty insignificant.
Also these “quotes” are getting a little “excessive” for the purpose of “driving” home my “point.”
With all the recent news i switched my OS from SV to BM a few weeks ago. So far it has been a breath of fresh air….just seems as a hunter we should expect more from our pets. Using my devilsaur again has been great and i know a wolf is the best raiding pet for MM/SV hunters but i really believe a devilsaur is going to pull more DPS.
I keep saying im going to do ICC as BM but i always switch back to MM after we clear trash. My best luck so far has been running toc 25 as BM and watching my Devilsaur pull 2750 dps on Lord jaraxxus.
The more i have thought about it the more i keep reminding myself that i play the game for fun. I like running BM and im going to keep doing it.
There are so many little touches that they can do to bm that can increase it’s dps in pve without affecting pvp and pet damage. They just don’t put much effort to it. For example a cooldown reduction to multi – shot by 5 secs won’t affect pvp at all and raise the damage of the bm hunter.
I’m actually thinking about doing Rotface in BM and kiting the slime. Just doesn’t seem like the tanks we pug are able to stay alive long enough for us to finish him off. The way I figure it, I shouldn’t lose too much dps on the boss if my pet is doing 40-50%. At this point, I’m willing to try anything to get past his angry poo-poos
I suspect that MM is better for slime kiting — I’ve only ever kited the big ooze as MM, but I was able to output over 6k dps on Rotface (10-man) while kiting. MM is able to maintain serpent sting on rotface by firing every Chimera at Rotface while kiting (and sometimes other instant shots) as well as getting the big burst dps between big oozes.
That said, kiting the ooze and dpsing rotface at the same time is certainly challenging (and fun)!
Yes. Because you are a god among hunters. Why do you think I’ve been reading your posts for almost 2 years???
You and I are pretty close on wow-heroes, but I cap out about 1-2k dps lower than you across the board. Scooting is tough for me as well as the jump/fire/disengage shots.
I also hold the same affinity for bows (and crossbows) that you do for guns. Trolls should not shoot guns.
Happy hunting Frost. Keep up the great work!
Props to Grimbow for pointing out the best reason to play BM…it’s FUN! Granted it’s a lesser bag o whoop ass to bring to the raid but unless the RL objects and you enjoy it I say bust that big red furball out and put it to work. If you get the boss down i say you’ve won and not been pushed into playing a style you don’t enjoy as much.
Although I rarely use BM I love going to solo Azuregos with one of my spirit beasts or Krush. It’s a hoot that I am pwning a world boss with 900k+ HP and can manage to keep pet threat up the entire time.
That said when I raid MM is WAY more fun me than BM. I love the crazy whack a mole shot rotation and, although it’s lessened since MM has gained popularity, the rest of the raid members were loving bringing the MM buff to their party. I’d get bunches of YAY! we get trueshot aura from sneaky rogue types and girlie lookin Mages in their prettied up robes.
Frost I believe you are looking at the BM buff wrong… in the text it sais *also* increases steady shot by X amount. I dont believe that this is a buff to arcane shot at all. Instead the talent will now say “increases the damage dealt by arcane shot AND steady shot by X amount”
I dont know if you know this or not you probably do, I would just think with the high use of steady shot by BM this buff will put it much closer to SV (Probably not as close as ghostcrawler sais I would assume within the range of 5% or so)
Correct, FI *currently* does the raid buff and the arcane 9% buff. The change will add 9% to steady shot as well. This results in a total gain of about 1.5% to BM dps.
I’ve been thinking about this post by GC, and its relevance to his post on his philosophy on DPS, which is to reward higher levels of difficulty, with feral DPS as an example. Back then, it was implied that since the pet does a large percentage of a BM hunter’s damage (essentially AFK damage), it makes little sense to reward lesser effort with the highest possible DPS. I agree with that philosophy. Which is why this seeming reversal is a bit puzzling to me.
On reflection, the reason is now clearer. With BIS gear, BM hunters at the ArP cap will do substantially more DPS than their pet, and will no longer be so dependent on their pet DPS (which does not scale with ArP). Sadly, tho, this sounds more to me like an MM hunter with a weird spec and a powerful pet than a true BM hunter.
One thing i don’t understand is at what ilvl point exactly that MM outdps SV in same gear lvl? Everyone keep saying MM does more raid dps all things being equal. I thought in your guide it said SV will outdps MM in early gear lvl. Is this still hold? I am at BiS pre raid gear mixed of 232-245 ilvl because none of my guild mate is ready for raid yet. Do you think at this point i can do more dps as MM rather than SV? (my current spec).
I agree with Frost on this one. If your a hunter that is doing hardmodes on 25m every person in the guild needs to be maxing out their talents for progression and BM isnt progression.
Im in a guild with 3 Marksmanship hunters and we all push ourselves to the limits doing every single hunter technique; shoot n scoot, pre-combat pot chaining, disengaging while pulling gcds in midair, and macroing deterrence to on/off mode to max dps. Doing all these still doesn’t guarantee top 5 on fights when your guild in 25s has a top 10 over 10k dps single target. I hardly think BM can compete against other classes even though it can “get by” against other weaker skilled and geared hunters.
Frost, just to make sure to clarify. The FI Buff actually is more than just the addition of Steady Shot, it’s also maintains the buff to Arcane Shot. I waited hoping you’d pick this up, but since I didn’t see it. I posted the clarification here.
So my question is this, with FI “Adding” the Steady Shot. Are you sure it’s still only a 1-3% DPS Increase? Something tells me that it’ll be more than that.
Correct. To state it again: Currently FI is the raid buff and the 9% to arcane.
After the PTR buff it will do everything it does now (with some tweaks to the raid buff that don’t change uptime) PLUS it will buff steady by 9%.
A flat 9% buff to steady shot is about a 1.5% overall dps increase to BM. Without maintaining the arcane buff (which it initially didn’t) the buff was only a net 0.8%
Just take the hunter percentage of your dps (usually around 70%), then multiply by the steady shot percentage, then multiply by 9%. That is the total dps boost.
@Arthemystia : If you’re referring to Frostheim:Frostryder, it is just a coincidence
I’ve had this nickname since the early 90s 
Other than that, I’m unsure as to what you’re referring 
BM pretty close to SV in 3.3.3:
http://elitistjerks.com/f74/t42519-best_possible_dps_shandaras_wotlk_spreadsheet/
BM is ~100dps behind SV, but both are ~1500dps behind MM. This is theoretical in BiS gear, but I’d like to hear what it’s before that too.
Easy fix.
1: Take away pets from MM and Survival
2: Increase dmg from hunter in MM and Survival
3: Make having a pet a 31 point BM talent.