Comments on: BM Evaluation is Costly Indeed

By: Onyxhorn

Onyxhorn — Fri, 28 May 2010 14:37:23 +0000

I know it’s old, but thanks for doing the due diligence on this, Frost. As a hate-drinking Prot Warrior who’s levelling a BM hunter mostly for pvp and fun, though maybe the occasional farm run or what not, I’ve followed your reports on the state of Huntering very closely. The highly controversial Scattered Shots post had me thinking that while the divide between BM and MM at the bleeding edge of performance is 30%, I found it hard to believe that it would be that wide across the board. Using your recount data, for example, putting out on average 8500 dps in MM, I was fairly confident that you’d be able to pump out more than 5950 in BM (no hard science behind any of that, mind you, just hypothesizing.) I thought about mentioning it as I read that but then thought.. no, keep going. He may yet address those same thoughts…and lo and behold!

Keep up the great work, man – both here and at WoW.com. Very very helpful stuff, even for those of us who moo when we shoot.

By: Michell

Michell — Thu, 18 Mar 2010 13:58:01 +0000

I am curious what pet you used for the test – the same one?

By: Jonathanjams

Jonathanjams — Tue, 16 Mar 2010 17:52:15 +0000

LOOK. Lets end this discussion here. MM will pull more dps in ICC PERIOD. I am skilled in BM and MM. BM makes closer dps to the MM spec in ICC in real fights. I am currently making around 500 dps less in my BM spec in ICC. Thats not much but enough to make me give up my BM spec for the sake of the raid. I runn ICC 10/25 EVERY week and have tested this time and time again. I even tryd a SV spec (sukd) it was not as good by a long shot either due to my play or spec wise. In closing MM if you want to pull your wieght. BM if you want the nestalgia (sp?)

By: Frostheim

Frostheim — Tue, 16 Mar 2010 00:26:52 +0000

Um…. huh?

The dps of other people is irrelevant. The raid had all raid buffs and debuffs active in both attempts. The differences in other people’s dps was mostly due to them testing different rotations/gear, as well as a difference in skill and RNG.

By: Corwyn

Corwyn — Mon, 15 Mar 2010 14:41:06 +0000

I think that the important thing is NOT personal DPS. I think the important thing is raid damage (AKA how fast does the boss die). With that in mind I added the top 14 DPSers (note the lists have 14/15 raiders respectively) in your target dummy numbers and got:
MM: 33782791
BM: 35209546
(hopefully someone will double check my addition)

So if this test show something, it is that the BM should be PREFERRED by raids! Or that bringing a MM hunter provides personal glory at the EXPENSE of the raid.

By: Rayne

Rayne — Thu, 11 Mar 2010 18:57:27 +0000

At the end of the day (or raid) everything comes down to flexibility… the ability to change when a given situation calls for it. I believe you would be hard pressed to find any hunter who doesn’t love their BM spec. Most of us leveled with it and have an affection for its effective simplicity and grace. The reality is that BM does not offer the DPS opportunities needed for end game raiding at this time. Any serious raider must admit that the key to being successful requires the ability to change and adapt… spec changing is just as much a part of that as anything else. As a DPS class, our focus is on doing damage and as much of it as possible. If it comes down to a question of “enough DPS”, then quite simply it’s never “enough”.

By: Snoggi

Snoggi — Wed, 10 Mar 2010 06:01:05 +0000

Is there a reason why Agility does more ofr your dps at high gear levels? On the surface, it would seem that AP gives you twice the dps that agility does, minus the crit. How does it work?

By: Florimel

Florimel — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 22:20:52 +0000

I was a BM hunter for years, and raided up through the start of Ulduar that way. I loved the playstyle and the big red pet and didn’t want to change — and I enjoyed making the most of the spec even after the big nerfs of 3.0.8. My guild was not high end and I was able to be at or near the top of the chart. But then Ulduar came and I had to spec for replenishment — and I found out how fun SV was. And then I tried MM and liked it even better — and since I am in a better raid now, I can’t cut it with BM, but as MM I am still in the top 5 and that is where I like it! So, even a die-hard BM hunter like me found that the other specs are lots of fun too, and I am doing more for the raid, so what could be better than that?

@Frost I am curious, what did you regem and reenchant for BM? As others have mentioned, BM goes from gemming AP to Agi to ArPen with gear improvements. Unless your gear is around T7.5-T8, I would think Agi would be better for you even as BM, and if your ArPen is at 550 you are moving into Fractured Cardinal Ruby territory. I just got my 4th piece of T10 this week and found that ArPen was better for both my MM and my BM spec. (I use Shandara’s spreadsheet at EJ to determine these things.)

I found your test very interesting and wish I could get my raid to do something like it.

By: Eshìn

Eshìn — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 19:06:21 +0000

(p.s. sorry bout the wall of text, seemed much shorter in the reply box)

By: Eshìn

Eshìn — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 19:03:48 +0000

I love BM… I miss it dearly, what I don’t miss is getting worked on a pet-unfriendly fight. With the buffs to avoidance we don’t have as much to worry about pet death but even then some fights in ICC are not pet friendly, remember the tests Frostheim ran were in the “Ideal” situations with a non-moving non ability target. Even in heroic dungeons this situation is rare, but lets for the sake of argument throw that out the window.

Lets assume that Frostheim’s DPS numbers were 100% equal, magic happened the RNG is eliminated and all is wonderful in the World of Huntercraft. One point remains and seems that does not seem to be up for debate is that a LARGE chunk of a BM’s DPS comes from the pet whereas MM and SV are not the case so lets use the following numbers.

BM Hunter 60% + 40% Pet
MM/SV Hunter 85% + 15% Pet (I’m rounding up Here for me it averages around 12%)

Now lets take these numbers into a raid, and see what kinds of fight work not against the hunter but the pet.

-Anything that requires your pet to chase things around, or switch between targets (travel time is no-dps time for Dino-Kitty where all you have to do is switch targets and keep pew-pewin).
-A boss attack that splats your pet quickly. (Remember your pets health is not usually high up on the healers list)
-A boss that flies up into the air. (Unless your pet learns the “Jump” ability, or becomes really tall they are not in the game where as ranged you can keep hitting them)

There are many fights in ICC where this is the case.

-Deathwhisper Phase 1(lots of target switching, though you can leave the pet on the boss the adds should be a higher DPS priority and as BM your damage output is lower then your MM/SV brothers on them without your pet)
-The Airship (hows that jumping from ship to ship working out for you?)
-Putricide (You should be sicking your pets on the ooze to get em down ASAP if you leave em on Putricide you are being a a bad hunter)
-BloodQueen (she flies for some of it, does anyone know if your pet gets the bonus from the bite?)
-Dreamwalker (add switching, get those burning skeletons down ASAP)
-Sindragosa (Have to have really good pet management but even then travel time between boss cubes and back to boss)
-Lich King… (Stopping someone from getting dropped of the edge, get em kitty… (splat) sorry)

Some may argue that it’s all about pet management and for a BM hunter I agree but even the best pet management in the world can’t change the boss abilities and the fact that your pet is 40% or more of your DPS. Even if those abilities are short (such as Bqueens air phase) those little parts start to add up over time, and the truth is those “little bits” are much smaller for MM/SV hunter then for a BM hunter. Mix that in with the reality of the DPS gap between SV/MM and BM and suddenly every little bit of damage really begins to count and you start to see where BM falls short in raids.

Suddenly Instead of being near the top DPS as a hunter and being able to give some breathing room if something bad happens (a DPS dies) you now have become “That Guy” that the other top raiders have to compensate for as well as being able to cover for any surprises that may occur. In other words, being “just good enough” is in reality “I am not able to do anymore then is asked of me.”

Is a BM raid viable? Well yes… but so is every other class in the game, if by “Viable” can you bring any class/spec to a raid and as long as the 24 other people do their job succeed yes. But if by “Viable” you mean: At the top of their game, doing the best DPS possible, being versatile in emergencies, and making sure the fight is pet friendly. Then no, as much as I miss it, BM is not Raid Viable.

-Eshin