As predicted, the Can Beast Mastery Raid column on wow.com yesterday drew tons of controversy and comments.

What I didn’t expect was the sheer volume of rabid BM irrational rage (and some rational rage as well). I knew there’d be some, but honestly I didn’t expect as much. For those of you who missed it, the column looked at actual data for BM dps as well as spreadsheets, and made the following points:

  • BM is raid viable, and can do any normal mode ICC content.
  • BM dps is 20% – 30% behind MM.
  • I philosophically disagree with choosing to do up to 30% less dps than you could, even if you’re hitting dps minimums.
  • I compared BM hunters to a raider choosing to raid in green quality gems, refusing to flask, eat buff food, or wear any kinds of pants. I called him Bob. Both Bob and the BM hunter are doing what is most fun for them, only Bob isn’t hurting his dps as much as the BM hunter is.

There were several main themes among the dissenting comments (and certainly lots of comments agreeing as well). These were:

  • Damn you for saying that BM is not raid viable! Yes we are!
  • People like you are why raids are not fun, you’re an elitist jerk. I should be able to raid whatever is most fun for me. Melee huntering and Bob don’t count, ’cause that’s different.
  • Saying we have to switch specs for a 30% dps boost is the same as saying we should level a brand new character from scratch every time a new class is any better dps.
  • You’re posting this just to deliberately offend people so you can win the hunter bet.
  • If I do enough dps to beat the enrage timer, that’s all that matters. As long as everyone else is doing the same we win (this is the rarely stated argument that I think is the best argument against my stance — it’s a different philosophical viewpoint from mine. I prefer do all you can, vs do just enough, but both are valid.)

Anyhow, in the aftermath of the rage and confusion, I’m going to clarify a couple of points that I wish I had space to get into with more detail. I’m also going to attempt to emphasize things that were misinterpreted.

I Like BM, and BM is Raid Viable

I don’t have a grudge against BM. Really. I certainly poke fun at BM hunters in the same way that I used to poke fun at survival hunters back when they were far behind. I probably spend more time in a BM spec than any other spec. I raided as BM for years when it was on top. I still do tons of extreme soloing in BM. I have a stable with exotic pets that I can’t bring myself to abandon, even though I basically never use them. I feel for BM hunters. I understand your pain. But that doesn’t mean I think it’s okay to do up to 30% less damage than you could be doing.

BM is raid viable. You can beat the Festergut dps check as BM with enough gear and skill.

However, in the question of “Can BM Raid?” the harsh practical answer is that most raid leaders won’t let you in their raid as BM. If they’re any good as a RL, they know you can do a lot more dps in another spec, and they know that is better for the raid. Even if you can do “enough” doing more is almost always better. Higher dps means you’re more likely to down bosses even when things go wrong.

How Much Less DPS than YOU Could Do is Okay?

I do appreciate the idea of playing the way you want to play, or the way that you’re most comfortable raiding. If you want to use your Dragonstalkers Helmet for nostalgia reasons instead of t10 helm, I’m okay with that. The actual impact on your dps is gonna be small. If you have slightly suboptimal talents so you can pvp as well in your raid spec, again, no biggie. Just like I don’t expect you to pay that 20k gold for your upgrade, I don’t expect you to do every single little tiny thing.

But raiding as BM isn’t a little thing. It’s a big, giant thing. 20% – 30% dps difference.

This is a point I wish I had stressed in the wow.com article… how much less dps than YOU could be doing is acceptable in you as a raider?

How much of a dps loss is okay for the sake of your fun at the expense of the raid’s fun? I say at the expense of the raid here because odds are with 30% more dps, you’d be killing bosses faster, and likely wiping less.

I can beat Festergut’s enrage timer as BM, but there have been several times that if I was BM, the raid would have wiped because we didn’t have that extra cushion when something went wrong.

So how much less dps than your own personal potential is okay?  Because even if you’re great at BM and merely competent at SV or MM — the difference is so vast that with just a bit of practice you’ll be doing considerably more dps in another spec.

How much less dps is okay? Surely not 90% less, but surely more than 1% less. Where’s the line? Or doesn’t it matter as long as your doing the minimum you have to?

My answer to this is around 5-10%. As long as your within about 10% of your own personal potential, I’m okay with your choices. Beyond that I think the good of the team starts to take precedent.

What About Bob?

Many hunters found the Bob example to be extremely offensive. It wasn’t designed to offend, but it was specifically engineered to really make you pause and take a hard look at what you’re doing. Because Bob isn’t gimping his dps as much as a BM hunter is, and they’re both doing it for the sake of their personal enjoyment of the game. Why is Bob’s behavior unacceptable but a BM is okay? Exactly what is the difference?

It’s certainly true that Bob can just visit the AH and buy all new gems, flasks, buff food, and pants and be ready to go. The BM hunter on the other hand has to respec and then learn to play that new spec. But still… that BM hunter should still be ready to go by the next week’s raid. It’s not that big of a commitment in terms of time. For many BM hunters it’s certainly a big emotional commitment.

The Greedy Goblin Way

This debate continually makes me think of a Greedy Goblin article where Gevlon argued that you should never do more than about 10% above the bare minimum dps. Anything more is a waste of resources (for useless things like epic gems) and you just end up working harder to carry the morons and slackers. Instead you should just find raiders who can also do just enough and you’ll win.

The notion of “just enough” versus “as much as I can” has never been a difficult choice for me. As regular readers know, I’m all about doing all you can to help the team. We are death dealers, and we don’t want to leave massive piles of dps sitting on the floor.

Also, it should be noted that casual raid teams need the help more than hardcore teams. In a hardcore raid team, you can be pretty certain that every raider is highly skilled and will do everything right, compensate for accidents swiftly, and execute with precision. Those of us that do more casual progression raiding aren’t able to clear every ICC wing in a few hours of its release. We make mistakes, we have a lot more slop and thus we are in greater need of more gear and more of a dps cushion to compensate for errors.

And honestly — and this is just my opinion here — if I was in a raid with a raider who chose to raid in a spec that was 30% less dps than his optimal spec, I would consider that disrespectful to the raid team. Id’ tell a rogue to get his ass out of Subtlety and use a real spec. I want everyone in my raid to be giving it their all within our time constraints. I want everyone to try as hard as they can, whether that means running the random for gear or learning the spec that will help the raid the most.

It Ain’t All About the Bet

And finally, this is not all about the hunter bet. Every single article posted in February was one that was already on my list in January. I think that the viability of BM in raiding is a big hunter issue that was deserving of being addressed. It was filled with misinformation and I think it’s about time we shined some light on it. That’s why I posted it.

On one hand we had tons of people saying that BM wasn’t raid viable and BM hunters were noobs and buffoons for trying. They were wrong. BM is raid viable.

On the other hand we had a lot of BM hunters arguing that with true skill BM was not only viable, but could actually out dps skilled SV or MM hunters. They were also wrong. BM is a massive dps loss compared to other specs at high gear and skill levels.

I’m all about trying to win the hunter vs druid bet. I think hunters have a much larger and more active community than any other class, and I want to see us win! But I’m not going to deliberately post something inflammatory and endure the flaming and being called an elitist jackass just to win the bet.

But likewise I’m not going to avoid addressing a big hunter issue, or taking a stance on it, for fear of the flaming and trolling :)

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  1. Melenaus says:

    Thank you.

    People’s feelings get hurt too easily.
    Fact of the matter is, if you really want to help your guild progress in current raid content, you’re going to want to spec Marksman/Survival. I feel like I could write a whole article myself just defending you, but you’ve already done that pretty well. But simply put, it just depends on how you want to play. If you want to find the big increases in dps for endgame raiding, switch up your spec and gem with epics. Just interested in pugging lower tiers and heroics? Go with whatever you like best, be it doing leet deeps, or bonding with your pet.

    Past that, some people just shouldn’t complain when told that their spec isn’t the best by 20% out there.

  2. Jackfinished says:

    Meh, you were trying to be rational. With evidence, you reached the people who matter.

  3. Pyrelik says:

    I do agree with you frost, given the solid amount of evidence shown throughout my time reading this site, Yes MM/SV are def the way to go for total leet domination and death dealing on meter…yea i know there is a but, how ever i also agree that a VERY and i do stress very well played Bm hunter (such as myre by what ive seen even though he did pull a sneak MM respec) ran fairly close to aurst and yourself, thats said our pets in a sense are what we are about, every one has their “trophy pet” myself its Amaterasu(gondria) she sits in the stables waiting for days on end until i take her out and just wander around Aimlessly as hunters do at times we we arent rocking out with our lock out . All in all i see your point and the other side as well, good old yoggy yes great for BM thats the only fight i know of in wotlk though, Solid science, Solid article, reaches into every ones opinion of hunters…..and gives a little room from huntards, great job…..btw i wont let Amaterasu eat any gummy nips off you, I’ll let your dino nibbles cuz if you get lynched he has to feed some where right :D

  4. Buurmen says:

    It’s just like people believing in god, once they have an ideology, no evidence or reasoning will take them off their viewpoints and they will try and shove it in your face any way they can. You are just the biology or science teacher of wow, stating the facts. Fortunately, it’s just a small group of people. The vast majority of BM hunters who just leveled as BM (which this talent tree is ideal for) and now stick to it in endgame cause they are used to it, will have another look at their playstyle after reading your article. You have educated the hunter community and made a group better, thanks for that.

  5. Mumbazoa says:

    I was once told it’s impossible to have a rational debate with an emotional person. I support your stance and as usual the EVIDENCE and SUPPORTING DATA is what is being overlooked. As usual though there is an issue with emotion not reason.

    Keep up the freaking awesome work Frost,

    Mumb’s

  6. Perrin says:

    As much as I love BM, and wish Blizz would bring the pets back to hunters, any raid leader that lets a bm hunter into a raid is a idiot. They probably also have fury warriors tanking and shadow priests healing. It all works out to be the same thing.

  7. nheco says:

    I agree with almost everything that frost said (except the part of hating bows and hating elves :p), and i find it stupid or almost unbelievable some of the answers you got in the topic, like one said “what u r saying is the same of we would all create a new other class char and level from1 to 80 if we are sure we r going to make more 20% – 30% with that new class” – i found this opinion very weird and wrong because u weren’t talking about other classes, u were talking about how to make the best of ONE class.

    I think some people just like to flame threads in the internet, kinda of a hobby or something.

    And Frost, keep up with your way of telling the truth and nothing more but the truth

  8. Satran says:

    It is a great article. I was not surprised by the venom in the comments (nor the lack of logic), since you will never be able to get rid of those people… but I was astounded by the number of them. I expected more people to read it and think, “Hey, I’m hurting the team in this spec. I should go do some research and give the raid all I’ve got.” You know… as opposed to “screw you guys, I’m going home.”

  9. Bozanimal says:

    The article was fine: A strong response from both perspectives just means that people are interested. You stated facts and then your own opinions; some readers just seemed to have difficulty separating the two.

  10. Nnof says:

    Frost, I thought this was a great article; I always look forward to your Hunter columns and blogs.

    My two-pence worth:

    We should not loose sight of the fact that Warcraft is a game and we all play it for our own enjoyment and recreation.

    Personally I raid as a MM, because I enjoy getting the big recount numbers, I duel-spec’d and switched from BM once I hit 80 and started the whole raiding scene. Whilst I totally agree with your science and logic, I feel that something got lost somewhere along the way.

    If it was a job, or a professional sport, the hell yes… kick them out of the raid and send them for re-education. But if people enjoy playing the game as BM and they get a kick out of it then that’s fine by me. I do the same myself. Doing the daily Heroics for badges I’ll switch specs and get my spirit beast out because it’s a fun thing to do.

    Yes I’ll poke fun at a BM raider (along with DKs and anyone in PvP gear)… but in a light-hearted way. If they choose to pay their money and play they game that way then who am I to tell them they must change? For me the fun is hitting high numbers, goofing around with my friends and ganking gnomes (seriously, what is the point of gnomes?). For others the fun is playing as a BM, I personally don’t get it, but its OK if that’s how they choose to play the game.

  11. Omogon says:

    Yup….you opened up a real “can o worms” there mate…..but in the end what you said made eminent sense and was true. I still hope for the day when I can take “Scutters” raiding…but until then it’s MM and Fido the ugly grey wolf.

    Carry on with great huntering information !

  12. Morynne says:

    Frost –

    Good clean-up, there was a lot of outrage yesterday. I understand you’re not on twitter. Be thankful you weren’t there yesterday. It was rough!

    I’m like-minded in the fact that I don’t like doing less than my personal best. I will always chase DPS optimums for raiding because that’s what I do. I do hardcore end game progression raiding, and I take a lot of pride in being the best hunter I can be.

    Much like many BM hunters love their spec, I’m a Marksman hunter for life. I tried to raid BT as MM back when that was the “it” raid, and the numbers were just sad. I respec’d into BM, and 1-2 button raided until the 3.0 patch. I was instantly topping the meters, but was utterly bored with the game.

    I messaged this on my own blog yesterday in response, but I’ll just throw it out there. BM is perfectly fine if that’s what you want to do. Will a progression raid take a BM hunter? probably not. Will *I* personally ever berate someone for making the choice to go BM? No. There’s lots of reasons to play a game, as well as many different ways to play a game like WoW. If it ever gets to the point where you’re not having fun, get back to what you love. You might not be widely accepted, but at least you’ll be enjoying yourself.

    I love reading your columns Frost, regardless of community outcry, keep doing your thing. The column yesterday invoked a lot of debate and theorycraft, and ultimately that’s what being a columnist is about.

  13. Saelle says:

    I liked the article and agree with your points but I can see where the end part was offensive to BM hunters. I think part of the issue is those of us that follow WHU and the Hunting Party Podcast understand your sense of humor and many of the readers of WoW.com only met you last month.

    The other issue that I think you are ignoring is the comments that question whether the data you used is a representative sample. I’m pretty confident that most top end guilds share your feeling that BM isn’t a viable raiding spec so you will only see BM hunters in guilds that haven’t progressed as much. If that is true then if you compare the top 20 raiders in each of the 3 specs then the numbers will make BM look worse than reality because of a gear differential.

    I do think that the top BM raiders have worse gear than the top MM/SV raiders. On the other hand I don’t think there is a better method to compare specs as a spreadsheet can’t duplicate a real raid experience. One thing you could do is show the spreadsheet difference in DPS that someone would see going from T9 – T10 and if that number is less than 20-30% then their argument is groundless. I am pretty confident that the gear jump isn’t that large but it would stop the argument of bad data.

    Then the only argument is whether it is ok to bring less than optimal spec to a raid. I am sure that BM hunters do better dps than the other people in their guild but the ultimate question to me is — “Could you do more?” Every time I’ve attempted a boss and we wipe at 1%, I have to ask myself – “Was there something I could have done different so we didn’t fail?” There is no way I could go BM and feel good about myself on these types of wipes. I also can’t believe any progression guild ultimately would allow it until the content was on farm.

  14. lataralus says:

    The “i want to have fun” argument only really works when it doesnt effect others. Think of all the bosses that wipe the raid at 1% health, or the adds you just cant get down fast enough, or the trash that takes forever… the list goes on. These are things that slow down raids and if are avoided make the raid so much more fun for the majority. Raiding is a team sport/game/hobby (whatever you wanna call it). Everyone should do their best to make the raid as enjoyable for everyone as possible. When you are soloing thats the time to do all the little things that amuse you.

  15. Valacia says:

    I think that the single largest flaw with the “BM 4 Lyfe” crowd is that this isn’t BC or Vanilla anymore. This is Wrath, we have this nifty thing called Dual Spec that allows someone to have their cake AND eat it too.

    I mean you’re not even asking BM hunters to spend 100+ gold every time they raid just to respec and reglyph. buying my dual spec was probably the best investment I have made in my hunter besides my DMC:G (though I am a scribe and was an herbalist at the time, so that was “free”)

    I did, last night, switch over to BM to run my randoms, just for you. I did love it. I had Loque out and to me there is not much as satisfying as seeing that beautiful giant red cat leaping into battle roaring one of the most beautiful battle cries in this game.

    Well, not much except seeing a 30k killshot… yeah, taht’s satisfying as well :)

  16. the Cheerleader says:

    I followed your logic Frost… and i am wayyy not a rational player. Keep on keeping on:D

  17. Kuldrad says:

    “Your $14.95 a month means you can play any way you want, but the rest of the raids $373.75 means you need to pull your head out of your ass!”

    Choosing to play BM means you are choosing to do 20-30% less DPS. That’s fine for you, just don’t expect anyone that you raid with to be fine with it. Most folk take raiding a bit more serious that leveling, soloing, or heroics. They appreciate seeing a bit more effort.

  18. Hrist says:

    Everyone believes THEIR dying child is special.

    It fits everywhere. The people who didn’t see they were at least as bad as Bob (let alone worse) are the ones that really have no clue.

    Wait, no. I see their point now! I am going to start tanking with a 2H weapon. If the DKs can do it than SO CAN I!!!! YOU CAN’T CONTROL ME!!!!

  19. Rades says:

    Hey Frost, as a BM hunter I found your article fine, as we would only expect from you. You can’t argue with stats and figures – it looked at things from a logical and analytical perspective. I knew you’d receive tons of hate though for it, haha.

    My only “complaint” is the Bob example, in the following way. The main argument I put forth when defending BM is that as BM, whether it be in ICC raids, heroics, or VOA, I frequently top the damage meters. So if you were a raid leader and “Bob” was topping the meters, wouldn’t you be better off dealing with the rest of the clearly slacking/inept DPS than worry about someone who clearly has the skill to maximize their non-optimal situation?

    If anything, BM should be a measuring stick – have one great BM hunter in the raid, and if any DPS deals less damage than them, boot em! ;) Because technically that shouldn’t happen. (disregarding huge gear differences, of course)

    Personally, I love it when prior to a raid another hunter (or any DPS) comments on how BM is for noobs. Because nothing is as satisfying as destroying them on damage, and inevitably someone (not us, for BM hunters are humble and not braggarts) will link Recount and we can sit back and bask in the glory.

  20. Kosez says:

    I loved that post, I think every hunter still using BM as raiding spec should read this and change it ASAP.

    I know MM is for the highest numbers but I still love to raid in SV. Actually I have both spec and I change them before encounters. I change to one that I think is more suitable for certain fight and I think every hunter should do that. But to raid in BM spec? Thats not an option for a good, competitive hunter who is trying to pay his dues.

  21. Darthregis says:

    Nice clarification on the matter. As one of the aforementioned dissenters, I approve! :)

    This may or may not have been addressed: Would the benefit from Bestial Wrath for the raid be enough to offset the 20-30% DPS loss from the one BM who uses it? (Or surpass it?) Would there be more benefit in a 25-man raid from that?
    (The answer, of course, has to be theoretical. Way too many variables for a realistic example.)

  22. Axebrew says:

    I’ve never understood how folks can be so passionate about an illogical cause. Of course, having had no dying babies (at least none that were dwarves, and thus worth attention… the rest were quite tasty).

    I used BM as my 24/7 spec because (1) my latency was bad (1.5) my reaction times SUCK, and this was better for me, (2) BM is awesome soloing (and it’s mostly what I did), (3) I was too cheap to spec every raid.

    A better ISP meant that I just have to combat my degenerating neurological system now. I can live with that. The introduction of dual-spec and the relative ease of saving cash for getting it means there’s no reason not to experiment with a more DPS-oriented spec. For me, it’s Marksman. I fail miserably at Survival even when attacking target dummies.

    But I still can’t bear to get a wolf for raiding. Shandy would kill me.

  23. Arthemystia says:

    I think most WHU readers are familiar with your writing style and methodology….this clarification is probably preaching to the converted. A shame you can’t do this as a follow-up on wow.com.

    And maybe I’m just more used to the more hateful corners of the internet, or I’m jaded from having moderated a couple other sites in the past, but none of the comment-bashing seemed shocking to me.

  24. Thenalia says:

    as one of the dreaded wretched druids that you’re currently competing with(im supporting you btw) i have a slightly outside the box view on this. While i dont raid often i do enough to understand that things go wrong, mistakes are sometimes made and people die. When a hunter brings a BM spec to a progression raid not only are they bringing below average DPS but they are essentially splitting the damage over 2 targets for which i now have to keep alive instead of one. Now, assuming a mistake is made and the pet dies, that hunters has lost another 40% of their DPS(give or take). So from my standpoint now only is it not viable for progression raids, but also puts unneeded pressure on the healers. While the counter arguement is that all hunters have pets that must be kept alive the fact is, if a MM hunter pet dies he loses as most 10% of their DPS which the raid can live with since that hunter is using his/her highest DPS spec the begin with.

  25. Gnorf says:

    Frankly, I was a bit disappointed that you didn’t apply your normal experimental approach to the question. You’ve run heroics naked, or un-specced, but where’s the Recount for Frost raiding as BM, for science? (And at different levels of gear, to illustrate the scaling challenge built into the spec.)

  26. Nayr (Bronze DF) (EU) says:

    When i read your post yesterday i guessed the BM followers would be upset with it, but im think sometimes you need to be cruel to be kind and you clearly touched a soft spot with the post, i also remember in your intitial post regarding the hunter vs druid bet you did mention you had already planned posts for February and im sure you also mentioned that at least 1 of them was a little contrversial.

    Now what do i think? i was a BM hunter for over 2 years, i have spirit beasts and enjoy using the specc more than the others, but when i raid, i raid in MM, why u ask? the answer is simple, i raid lead, if i am not willing to specc to top dps specc on my class, how can i expect my raid team to do the same, 20-30% dps increase is HUGE, maybe not for older content such as ToC 10/25 or even icc normal, (although in ICC the more dps the easier it will be on healers and tanks, for example bloodbeasts on Saurfang).,
    i believe by choosing not to specc to the highest dps specc u are saying you dont mind making it tougher for your raid team, and i personally wouldnt want a “me me” player in my raid team.

    Most of the guys getting upset are guys that were willing to take Frost advice when BM was top specc, but now that he is saying something they dont like(that is more than proven by actual data) they are getting upset, until the top dps hunter is BM the “team players” will be MM, even if the BM’ers like it or not, MM will get you more dps and WILL make it easier on everyone else in the raid, I am positive Frost isnt saying this to upset people, but to educate them. I know its hard to swallow for the thausands of hardcore BM’ers, i would ask them to take a minute to think about being a raid leader, do you choose the BM hunter doing 2kps less than the MM hunter in your guild? trying taking an Objective look at it just for a minute

  27. El homo says:

    Fanboys ftw^^

    Just love how ppl can get angry for not being smart.
    I’m angry, so I must be right XD

  28. Catrie says:

    Frost,

    Read your post and totally agreed with it. I’ve played both BM and MM and for raiding, I would definitely use the spec that does the most DPS. Mainly, because I expect everyone else in the raid to be doing as much damage as they are able, so why shouldn’t I be doing the same?

    Keep up the good work. <3

  29. Nella says:

    I think you mean Ferocious Inspiration? Bestial Wrath has no benefit to the raid, only the hunter. Anyway FI is a 3% damage increase to the raid, but doesn’t stack with Mr. Ret. Pally’s Sanctified Retribution.

    So lets assume a 10 man (chances of a 25 man raid without a Ret Pally are about as close to zero that I wouldn’t be betting my raid slot on it :)) Anyway 2 tanks, 2 healers 6 dps, so 5 of them aren’t the BM hunter 5 x 3% = 15%, which goes a fair way to closing that 20%+ gap, almost but not quite far enough imho.

    If in some strange parallel universe you do end up in a 25 man raid with no Ret. Pally then your RL should be begging for just one single BM Hunter on the team. 3 tanks, 7 healers, 15 dps – BM hunter = 14, multiply that by the 3% and that is equivalent to a 42% personal increase but shared amongst the raid, which does outweigh personal loss of being BM instead of at least SV.

    I think I have by stacking / non-stacking buffs right :P

  30. jackfinished says:

    If I remember correctly BRK had the same reaction when he started writing for WoW.com. People got all uppity about how he would write. Mostly because a lot of the writers on that site take a middle of the road approach. But BRK and yourself take the other side saying if you want to be serious about huntery and pull the most out of your class, you need to do X. He helped pull BM to where is was, and still is in some people’s mind. a lot of hunters couldn’t believe that a hunter and his pet could take the top of the meters.

    It is amusing to see people perceived slights against them. At no point did you say “If are BM you are a STOOPID LOL-NUb and shouldn’t even play!”. All you said was that for progression fights, BM is behind and if you want to do the most that you can try out MM or SV. But if you don’t want to BM still does decent dps.

  31. duskhawk says:

    As someone who’s been a MM hunter for closing in on 5 years, I understand people’s reluctance to switch. And since I’m not in a hard-mode guild, as someone who helps determine raid policy, I’m okay with specs like BM as long as the person is pulling their weight. (It does bother me when people ignore adds to pad their DPS by staying single-target, though. That hurts the raid more than their specing into a less-optimal build does.)

  32. Shizukera says:

    “I compared BM hunters to a raider choosing to raid in green quality gems, refusing to flask, eat buff food, or wear any kinds of pants. I called him Bob. Both Bob and the BM hunter are doing what is most fun for them, only Bob isn’t hurting his dps as much as the BM hunter is.”

    Sorry, mate, but that is pretty insulting. I’d go over how I’ve busted my butt to get the gear I have, how most of the raiding hunter info out there is for SV/MM hunters so I’ve had to experiment and create my rotation and playstyle largely on my own, that I’ve managed to do a damn good job for the level I play and prove my worth in spite of the stigma and issues that come with playing a spec I love and am good at, and I don’t like having my hard work belittled and put in the same class as someone who literally puts NO EFFORT into their play. But neither of us is going to change the other’s mind, and if you can’t see why that comparison is hurtful after all the hullaballoo – well, I’m not likely to be able to make it any clearer.

    Also, it’s not just a matter of respeccing. It’s also regemming and reenchanting. As BM, I stack mostly attack power, with some agility in there. (There’s crit too, but most of it is AP and agi.) If I switched specs, I’d have to replace almost every one of my gems and enchants, and I’m not gonna lie – the prospect of learning a new spec AND buying all-new gems and enchants to support it is daunting and off-putting. Yes, there’s dual spec, but to play either spec to its potential I’m looking at a new gear set which, again, would need to be gemmed and enchanted appropriately.

    All that for a spec that I might end up being so terrible at, or disliking so much, that I end up doing *less* DPS than I do in my abhorrent beast mastery spec.

    If I were to go to a guild that was pushing Icecrown? Yeah, I’d suck it up and do it. But for where I am now – Ulduar-10 normal, some ToC in there, maybe some hardmodes in those instances once we get familiar with them, more heroics than you can shake a stick at, and our regular raiders in T9 – really? For raiders like me, with this expansion drawing to a close and the next one imminent, can you really tell me it’s worth the effort, expense, and frustration to switch?

    P.S. Sorry if this novel posts twice; I forgot to tell Firefox to allow the site. :3

  33. Darthregis says:

    @ Nella

    Thanks for that! Yes, Ferocious Inspiration… not BW.

    In regards to your calculation, I think you’ve over-simplified it (and forgot that tanks do damage, too. ;)). That said, I think you’re conclusion is still correct. The constant additional 20 – 30% dps from the hunter is better than the 10 second, 3% boost for everyone. At least for a 10-man raid.

  34. Frostheim says:

    “Sorry, mate, but that is pretty insulting. I’d go over how I’ve busted my butt to get the gear I have,…”

    Exactly so. Some people who busted their butts as much as you did, including learning how to play one of the top specs for their class *might* feel equally insulted by the BM hunter in their raid doing so much less dps than they could be doing with their class. That’s the point I was trying to make.

  35. Thenalia says:

    @ Shizukera

    Many folks seem to be caught up over Frost’s analogy to Bob, however it was more along the lines of an easily understood example for anyone who reads (after all WoW.com is not a hunter only blog) to understand how massive a difference BM is behind. In no way was Frost saying “hey you’re BM you must be a terribad noob like Bob.” While you might prepare and pay your dues like all good hunters should the sad fact is that your DPS while still be behind, therefore, its more of a shot against the spec that you play not the type of player you are.
    Also, the purpose of that article was as follows: Is BM a good idea in ICC? and that answer is easily no since its the latest content and its underpremforming comparable to the other specs of the very same class, so for the Uldar, TOC and your basic heroics run whatever spec makes you warm and fuzzy inside. As long as you pull your own weight in things that you’re guild isnt struggling to kill then why should anyone care? Its only in progression content when this starts to change.
    Last note in my wall of text, lets say you respec and try MM or Surv, its not like attack power is the worst stat on the face of the planet for those specs its just not the #1 option, so if you respec run a heroic or two in your same gear and try the spec, no one will care becuase you the player will still maintain good DPS even if not gemmed correctly, then if you like is make a decision on gear and gems later on. This will at the very least let you know if you like either spec enough to try and get new gear/gems. So you dont have to jump off the deep end right away with a respec but instead you can see how the water feels with the current roflfaceroll heroic environment.

  36. Adameus says:

    @Buurmen & Hrist

    Woah, woah, woah. Back the tolerance wagon up. You’re comparing playing a BM spec to believing in God and having a dying child?

    I agree with pretty much all the points that Frost made in the article, but these kind of comments are exactly the problem. In my opinion, it’s an internet-wide problem too. People, disconnected from one another by way of electronic, rather than interpersonal, interaction, spout off and say things that would not be tolerated by well-meaning, rational people in civilized conversation, because there is no immediate accountability. I remember working in the web when it was brand new and seeing over and over again people sending emails saying things they would filter in real life, then having to try to retract what has been said, an impossible task thanks to the immediacy and permanence of the “send” button.

    You may not like the choices that these people make, but they are people. They have minds and lives and reasons particular to their own experience.

    I believe in God. I don’t play BM spec in raids. I believe all dying children are special. I top the DPS meters in my casual raid group.

    In the end, I’m not evangelizing the MM spec that I play, though it doesn’t please me when a BM hunter gets invited to our raid group. He pulls his weight, though not quite to the extent that I do. He’s got better gear than I do. He should be able to out-dps me, but he doesn’t. Regardless, he does a fair share of the overall damage on a boss. I’m okay with it. If he were really low on the meters, I’d take more issue.

    The base of Frost’s argument remains valid, where supported by his evidence. However, with these comments, I say it’s unfair to throw around blanket statements, weighed down by your personal opinions and experiences, and expect me to take that as gospel. In Frost’s case, he had some real data to back up a legitimate argument. Some points of his argument were made more effectively than others. I see why the BM’s got riled up, regardless of whether or not I agree with them.

    What got me riled up is that someone had the gall to throw my faith and my childrens’ lives into the argument in some poorly wrought comparisons. The two have nothing whatsoever to do with one another.

    Be careful what you write before you hit the send button, folks. Those are real people you’re communicating with on the other side of that computized connection.

  37. Underøath says:

    I think it would be really interesting to find out who is the highest performing BM raid hunter currently, and have them interviewed in an upcoming podcast. An interview like that may go a long way to provide other BM raiders some insight on the way to perform their best in raids, while still running their favored spec. Anyone else think this might be a good idea?

  38. Incompetat says:

    Why not just switch to MM anyway and still do a tonne more dps without having to regem?

  39. stoutnbitter says:

    Raiding as a SV hunter in BC was the defining point of my WOW life.
    yes my dps was 30-40% behind the top BMhunter, yes i got looked over for upgrades, yes i struggled and strived to boost my output, but i had a purpose. i was the buff hunter, the extra mage for cc, actually i was used to multi trap.
    the raid leader didnt require me to do huge numbers.. i was needed to stop the adds from one shotting the healersand clothie casters. yes i had a purpose.
    I was there to buff all the dpsers with my array of debufs and party buffs.
    serpent sting was a no no, scorpid sting was what i used to help that poor poor meat shield.
    unfortunately in these times we (hunters) are expected to DPS>>DPS>>and DPS. the skill hasnt gone its shifted.
    I ask each and every BM hunter here. did you enjoy BC having your kitty eating everything in sight and having all other classes screaming “nerf hunters”
    I also ask you, do you think that the glory days will come back? I am certain that they wont (just ask any lock).
    so in conclusion.
    suck it up, dry your eyes, keep BM as your main spec but raid as SV or MM if that means you need to spend some time shooting a dummy, is that so bad? if you feel that target dummies are beneath you andthat you get embarrased being in IF potting a well used mechanical, go to Darnasius or Exodar, they are still fresh and clean.
    take a step back and look at the other 9-24 other people in the raid.
    do you have a purpose? or are you taking up a spot that can be filled by a dot lock?

  40. Thenalia says:

    @ Adameus

    Both posters were using an analogy that was taken waaaaaaaayyy out of context in your post, Noone is insulting God or dying children, perhaps a re-read before htting the “post comment” button would benefit you as well.

  41. Kuldrad’s “Your $14.95 a month means you can play any way you want, but the rest of the raids $373.75 means you need to pull your head out of your ass!” is probably the funniest thing I’ve heard today.

  42. Arthemystia says:

    All this has actually made me happy that BM isn’t the top dps spec. Not that I enjoy negativity and chaos…well, maybe the chaos.

    ;-)

  43. Moriquendi says:

    Kuldrad’s “Your $14.95 a month means you can play any way you want, but the rest of the raids $373.75 means you need to pull your head out of your ass!” is probably the funniest thing I’ve heard today.

    Can I just echo that on Euripides. :D

    Frost, I too feel for the BM Hunters, and I agree with your basic premises. Can a raid successfully run with a BM Hunter? Absolutely. Could that hunter do better as SV or MM, absolutely.

    For any given raid team they will need to look at whether or not the 20-30% dps loss ia going to work for them I guess. For me personally it was never a question. I enjoy all three specs, but I’ll raid in the one that best gets my job done. 95% of the time that is the one that does the most dps.

  44. Nella says:

    @Darth

    Yeah, I know I was oversimplifying it, but we aren’t after precise numbers here… just ‘finger in the air’ is it worth pursuing kind of reasoning. I’d imagine FI is up pretty much 100% of the time, I’m assuming a pet crit will refresh the duration and a BM pet isn’t going to go 10 seconds without critting…unless it’s dead… Wait! No it isn’t… BM!… Heart of the Pheonix :)

    @Shizu

    We’re all hunters here, I’d be surprised if there isn’t a one of us that doesn’t love BM just as much if not more than any other spec, yes… Frost included :) It’s just that the same player in the same gear given just a couple of days practice will very likely do more damage in survival and with and then with a few more days on top of that beat survival with marks.

    If you can afford the gold for dual spec. I strongly recommend trying out SV or MM for a few days even without re-gemming or re-enchanting I’d put money on you topping your own BM numbers. Or just respec for one day to try it out, you’d make the respec costs twice over in about 3 random heroics.

    I do love running into a pack of mobs with the tank… MD… Explosive Trap… Disengage… ES Tab ES Tab ES… Multi… KS (I have thoughts of what might be running through the minds of some of the others in the party… ‘Oh god huntard running in to melee, never mind he’ll be dead in a bit… huh! how did he do all that damage in 15 seconds’)

    Having said all that BM is still fine, I typically run as survival and even if I took 30% off my numbers I’d still be competitive, just not at the top of the board anymore :P I don’t get to raid much these days (moved to US a few years back, but still play on EU, so that makes things tricky) I just like playing a hunter – whatever spec it is :)

  45. Snoggi says:

    Scott Adams once stated that once you give a manager a number, it will stick into their head like it’s the only truth in the world.

    The same goes with this article. Even if one ignores the ‘if’s and ‘but’s that could be made about it, you mentioned 20-30%.

    How many people do you see now speaking of anything less than 30%? Nope, suddenly every BM hunter not only deals 30% less damage than everything else, they’re also 30% less of a player. You might have gotten more positive responses if you’d ended the article as it was intended originally: informative, letting the reader form their own opinion.

    A final note: not only can science be wrong, it has been wrong often in the future, and even most science used today is filled with round-off errors and assumptions. So to all of you out there (and not intending to question the quality of the article itself): if something looks scientific, then it doesn’t automatically mean that every number you’ll find in there is actually correct.

  46. Hrist says:

    @Adameus

    You missed my point. First, I assure you anything I type in these forums I would say to people’s face. I appreciate that you know how the anonymity of the internet works but I need no such shield to hide my views.

    My comparison was based on real life attitude. There are rules and regulations health insurances and hospitals (and all other companies for that matter) have to follow and MOST people agree that they make sense…until it affects THEM. Suddenly when THEIR kid is sick or dying, those rules or regulations should be ignored because “their kid is the exception” and it applies to more than just this scenario. People think what Bob is doing in this scenario is ridiculous and never should be tolerated. Then suddenly drops the “well BM hunters are hurting their raids even MORE than Bob” and suddenly the excuses are flying and THEIR excuses (dying child) are reasonable (special).

    Go go hypocrisy!

  47. Shizukera says:

    @Thenalia

    People are upset about the Bob thing because it was a *bad comparison.* Period. The fact that so many people are making a fuss about being compared to an obvious terribad ought to say something about the importance of wording.

    “Last note in my wall of text, lets say you respec and try MM or Surv, its not like attack power is the worst stat on the face of the planet for those specs its just not the #1 option,”

    And yet, I’d still get slammed for having bad gems and enchants. You can’t frown at me and tell me how badly I’m hurting my raid for having a subpar spec, then tell me it’s okay to have subpar gems and enchants. It ALL makes a difference in endgame.

    @Frostheim -

    “Exactly so. Some people who busted their butts as much as you did, including learning how to play one of the top specs for their class *might* feel equally insulted by the BM hunter in their raid doing so much less dps than they could be doing with their class. That’s the point I was trying to make.”

    I put just as much effort into learning to play my spec well in BC when BM was tops and I was clearing pre-nerf BT/Hyjal and pushing Sunwell. And yet, I still managed not to be insulted at having a SV hunter in the raid (and, for a time, we actually did have one).

    Then again, I don’t think SV/MM ever got hit as hard with the nerfbat in BC as BM did at the beginning of Wrath, though I could be mistaken (BC was long ago and my memory kinda sucks).

    @Thenalia and @Frostheim -

    Quoting myself:

    “If I were to go to a guild that was pushing Icecrown? Yeah, I’d suck it up and do it.”

    I’m aware of my spec’s limitations. I’m fully aware that if I were in content above Ulduar, I’d need to change. But I’m not. I made the choice to leave hardcore endgame raiding, and for *where I am,* BM is working exceptionally well. The fact that this continues to bother people genuinely confuses me.

  48. Darthmoo says:

    I completely agree with 95% of what Frostheim said in the article. All very well said and it was about time someone came out and said it.

  49. Odrob says:

    The way that I see it, BM is a good offspec choice and might even worth to raid with if all of the following conditions are met;

    1) You are in a 10man raid.
    2) There are other classes that can provide the %10 AP buff and replenishment.
    3) Your raid lacks a retri pala AND a warrior or a rogue.

    For example,
    A icc10 man raid with 2 tanks (pala + druid), 3 healers, 5 dps (spriest, dk, enh shaman, mage and hunter) might benefit more from a BM hunter with a worm (for sunder) than it might benefit from a MM hunter.

    Still, I wouldn’t want to optimize my character for these very specific conditions.

  50. Darthregis says:

    @Nella

    If we presume FI is up all the time, then it’s fairly close. And if the specific hunter can only increase their DPS by 20%, then it makes more sense to have them stay as BM and keep FI up.

    6 dps x 3% + 2 tanks x 1.5% (fair to say they do half of dps damage?)
    That would put us at a 21% overall damage increase.

    AND if we have people doing more DPS than the BM Hunter, then it makes even more sense to keep that hunter as BM for better over-all raid contribution.

    Let’s take all those MM hunters and add one BM to the mix.
    3% of 9k dps = 270. MM Hunter x5 = 1350
    3% of 6k (2 tanks) = 180
    3% of 7k (BM hunter) = 210
    Total dps increase = 1740

    20% of 7k = 1400
    30% of 7k = 2100

    Assuming a 30% increase switching to MM, the total difference = ~360 dps.

    Total raid dps w/BM hunter = ~59.74k
    Swithing to MM = ~60k.

    Yes, this is a very simplified example. But we may be talking about a less than 1% detriment to the raid’s overall dps.

    Based upon that, I’m not sure BM is nearly as detrimental as it’s made out to be.

  51. Frostheim says:

    I agree that it’s not that detrimental *if* you’re in a raid with no ret pally or arcane mage *and* you also already have someone providing the 10% AP buff that you’d lose from no trueshot aura.

    Also note that most tanks do not come close to half of a dps damage. Maybe a third.

  52. Nayr (Bronze DF) (EU) says:

    @ Shizukera

    the comparison that Frost makes with Bob was not a “Bad Comparison Period” as you have put it, it is clearly stating if you were in a raid with Bob under the conditions Frost has stated for Bob then you as a BM would be giving up more dps than Bob would be. Now if your raid leader is happy about that then fine, but please dont spit the dummy out over a comparison that has clearly hit a sensitive spot with some BM’ers, I am also positive if you take the time to raid the wow.com post again you will see that Frost is not trying to insult you he clearly states BM is a viable raid specc on quite a few occasions, every hunter that has paid his dues knows the work it has taken to get here, but part of paying your dues is “growing a set” and learning top dps specc.

    I am trying to understand why this is so hard for some of the BM community to understand, its quite simple really, Frost was not “insulting” BM’ers with the Bob comparison, he was trying to explain how big a decision it was for the (END CONTENT) hunters choosing BM over MM, no matter wat the % is that you are giving up, you are still making the decision to do less dps, just like Bob, but in a bigger scale

  53. Thenalia says:

    @ Shizukera

    I apologize, it appears i didn’t phase what i was attempting to say correctly, what i meant was you can respec to MM/Surv while using BM gems in heroics and or lower level 10 mans. Of course the right gems make a difference in ICC but hopefully up to that point you have made a decisions as to whether or not you absolutely hate the other specs or if you will begrudgingly change. Once you get anywhere near progression content you absolutely need to gem right but can you still get an idea of your likes/dislikes and practice rotations even if you are gemmed wrong? the answer is yes.

    Secondly, no person here is jumping down you’re throat because you choose to play BM on a lesser level, the most Frost or I have said is that IF you do raid as BM you COULD be doing more to help you’re raid in a progression environment and that it would behoove you to do so. In short, no one is calling you a noob or a terrible player because of your preference at a nonprogression level.

  54. Ryuki says:

    My hunter is a BM hunter, I’m not a hardcore raider. Not because I don’t want to learn MM or SV. I think the explain was a good one, as there are some extreme people out there who don’t listen. The way I look at the whole debate is simply this;

    If your apart of a raid team and it’s new content, meaning the team has not clear it, such as I’ll use the first wing of ICC for an example. Yes.. go in at your best, I don’t see what the big deal is with most BM hunters.. go get yourself 1K gold (not that hard these days) and get a 2nd spec for your raid spec.

    Now if your apart of a raid team and you have already cleared content out and moving on to the next one and say there are a new member in the team and your going back to a raid to say farm it or to help other players get to your level, I see no harm in wanting to have fun and go in as a BM.

    I myself have a spec for everything, I have a spec in PVP using all three, I have a standard PVE (for heroics) in BM only, why? Because heroics are so easy now and most of the time you only in there for 10mins, but I also have a SV spec for that as well. I have a Raid spec in MM and BM. If we could spec more then 2 specs that would be epic, but I’m fine with respecing every so often to do with what I need to do.

    I enjoy BM not because its easy but because I would rather do stuff myself. Finding groups to do content, (generally older content) is very hard. I may not be ready gear wise, skill wise to walk into ICC of anything, but I’ll be sure to in the years to come after Cataclysm comes out and all thew new epics that we get form that… I’ll be sure to be soloing my way through ICC. You may find that funny right now, but think about those 60 raids back in the day. If a BM hunter said to you “Someday I’m going to solo this bitch” you would have laughed. Today, we’re reaching a point of soloing 70 raids or 2-3 manning them easy. I see no reason for ICC to have the same fate.

    So really to all the beast masters who cry about it, be lucky we have 3 specs that can do stuff, most classes don’t even have that.

    Happy Hunting xD

  55. Ryuki says:

    Eh… I forgot to add.. the reason I prefer BM over the others as my main spec is half the time I’m not able to be on when raids go down. I’m lucky to level my characters as it is haha.

  56. Darthregis says:

    @Frost

    Our tanks are at about 50% of our DPS… but we’re also not uberleet. :) Also note that in my example that I did take them as 1/3 of the dps. ;)

    Again, my shortcomings with my arguments is that I am not part of a proper 10 or 25 person raiding guild. We don’t have a Ret Pally and only sometimes have an arcane mage.

    Oh, the possibilities. Maybe all buffs should stack. :)

  57. Khayr says:

    I’d like to say that up until I joined a real raiding guild and started Ulduar, I was BM for the longest time. I loved it, I really really did. I still love it! I agree though, that unless you know exactly what you’re doing most of the time the dps just can’t cut it. ): I went SV, but kept my offspec as BM- why not? To me it felt terrible looking at recount and seeing my name at the bottom of the list, no matter how hard I was trying.

    I agree that if someone wants to raid a particular spec, let them be. A similar debate is going on with a lot of locks right now- demo has not been the ideal raid spec for a while, but now that other caster classes have finally realized that there is a nice buff that comes with that spec, a lot of people (my server, at least) have started to guilt destro and aff locks into rolling demo! (It’s almost opposite of the hunter debate, actually) Personally I know BM hunters that pull 8k with ease- 8k is acceptable in my eyes, that’s not a bad number. You certainly won’t be the top, but you might not be the bottom depending on your guild.

    It’s a personal choice and I would never harass someone if that’s what they wanted. <3 I see Frost's point and it's valid, though; the numbers don't add up but to some it doesn't really matter.

    Anyways xD

    I do have to say I sprayed water everywhere reading the title of this post. "Gummy nips"… teehee.

  58. Winnson says:

    Played all night and when I wasn’t first in the meters, I was second.

    After hitting 80 and before discovering WHU, I was lucky to beat priests.

    The reason why, mostly, is respeccing from BM and listening to and putting into practice the sage advice from this site, which was the reason I switched from BM in the first place.

    It wasn’t because this site (or the wow.com article, indeed) says BM is bad anywhere. It was because the impartial, empirical, up-to-date and well informed information on here started steering me toward MM / SV to get more dps. Wanting to get more dps is the reason I searched for a site like this in the first place.

    Frost, you probably know this already, but you’re always exactly right. I can’t believe BM hunters didn’t know that already too.

  59. Thryst says:

    This is a topic that will always exist and all we can say about it is that people can raid as BM if they can find a guild/pug that will bring them where they want to go. But if they don’t get taken, too bad for them, they made a choice to do a lot less dps than they could, now it’s up to them to deal with it.

  60. Brewmore says:

    Only thing I have to add, seeing as how my stance on this arguement as already been eloquently stated, is that I am glad to see so much support of Frost here. Gret job standing up and defending the clarity of the arguement. I love my fellow Hunters!

  61. Oka says:

    Well said, Frost, well said.
    I agree with you on every point. Im betting you werent expecting the RAEG tho lol.
    Anyway, to make my own point:
    If you want to do whats most fun for YOU and YOU ALONE. Then don’t raid. Raiding is a team effort, and if you arent willing to play along just because you think its more fun to “Lone Wolf” about it, then just gtfo. Seriously….

  62. Cyanidius says:

    So. the rage u have recieved from that article proves that the vanilla BM huntard that u dexcribed is still very much alive and well. and yeah, that was a dig @ BM’ers

  63. Raventiger says:

    Hi Frost,

    Personally I think you make a good point. Personally I feel you are right if you are talking about hardcore progression raiding. A casual raiding group however is a different kettle of fish as that’s more for the enjoyment of the game. Your post came off as though you were telling everyone (regardless of their playstyle) how they should spec.

    Regardless you shouldn’t have to put up with people trolling you, we can disagree with each other respectfully without going to the extremes of making hostile posts.

    Regards,

    Raven

  64. enecia says:

    Frost i think you are amazing,you have helped me to become
    a hunter who is an asset to my guild.
    I swapped from BM to SV
    and it was absolutely the right choice to make,i still have a BM spec
    for when i want to play.Doesnt take long to make the gold to dual spec and regem,
    not long at all.Hopefully one day when my gear is up to par ill swap again
    to MM.
    Maybe one day they’ll learn to take a bit of friendly advice without going off on one,
    we live in hope eh ?!

  65. Cea says:

    I am a Hunter, and i thrive when im on top of the dps charts, i thought all Hunters did. If you are happy languishing down the table out of stubborness due to wanting to be BM for the sake of it, then you really are letting yourself, your pet and the team you are raiding with down.

    I myself was BM at the start of WotLK when we pwned, but i respected the fact that we was in decline after nerfs and with a heavy heart i respecced to SV. Now i am stuck with SV even though i would prefer to be MM as my gear is imba and i could squeeze out more dps. But as i am Hunter CL in my Guild, i am the one who sacrifices a small part to be the mana battery in some of our 10 man raids.

    But my dps is still +7k on likes of Festergut as SV, but if i was BM doing 4-5k then ui would feel ashamed of myself and embarressed going to a raid and doing lower than i could, also i would feel i was letting down my fellow raiders.

  66. Rhinochaser says:

    In 25 mans our guild raid leader wants all DPS at or above 5k DPS. If the player is being tasked with other duties that cut into their DPS he takes this into account but 5K. is whats expected to stay in the 25 man teams. If you cant pull that then you get to be in the 10 mans to gear up or are asked to change your spec. I raid BM and MM. I pull 5k in 25 man raids as BM so Im allowed to raid BM. I think having a DPS req. is better than just making a blanket statement like “any raid leader that allows a BM hunter in a raid is a idiot” is unfair and narrow minded.
    Could I do 6K as SV or MM? Maybe, probably, but I would have to gem completely different to do so as BM DPS favors attack power vs. Agillity so I have to pick a spec to gem for. I guess I could be a sv or mm hunter running with a wolf like the other 99% of hunters that raid but I play like I LIKE TO PLAY. It is what it is.. A skilled BM hunter is still better than a mediocre SV or MM hunter IMHO. Just like the dude in trade looking for a certain gear score to allow someone in their raids. Gear score < skill. But live like you want to live.. PEACE!

  67. Rooger says:

    ok some quick number based on Frost’s own “The Voice” recount for festergut.

    Total raid DPS (dropped all decimals for easier math) 35,669 DPS.

    3% of that is 1070. Even if we assume a 90% uptime on FI, that would be 963 DPS.

    Here, it would be obviously detrimental to have Frost switch from MM to BN, as his DPS was 8195.

    The other hunter in that raid was “only” doing 5919. The FI buff would be adding 16% to 18% to that.

    In theory, if the shaman in that raid (that had the lowest of the DPS toons) with 5203, was replaced with a BM hunter doing identical DPS… FI would be 18% to 20%.

    ==

    Now if we extrapolate that 10 man raid into a 25 man raid… 35,669 DPS X 2.5 = 89,172 DPS.
    That’s a clunky extrapolation, because that would be 12.5 DPSers, and 5 tanks.. but it does yield numbers that would be on the low side.

    100% FI would yield 2675 DPS, and a 90% uptime would yield 2407 DPS.

    Now if we go back and look at the numbers.
    Frost’s 8195 FPS… if Frost took a 30% DPS hit, that would be 5736 DPS. the FI buff would give back 2407 (@90% uptime) bringing him back up to 8143 DPS. That’s less than 1 1% drop in DPS.

    If we look at that Shamy from above, with 5203 DPS. FI’s 2407 DPS represents over 46% of the Shammy baseline DPS.

    To put it another way, if that shammy was a bm and switched to MM then he’d likely see a 30% DPS bump to 6739 DPS. If we add the FI buff to his baseline… that’s 7610 DPS at a minimum of 90% uptime.

    So yeah, every 25 man raid should probably have a BM hunter.

    Those are some very rough numbers that can be picked apart. But It’s still safe to assume every 25 man raid could benefit from at least 1 BM hunter. I haven’t been in any 25 man raids with more than 1 BM hunter since Gruuls Lair, where we’d run 3 or 4 BMs because the FI buff would stack. No idea if it still does.

  68. Hargrim says:

    Man i love it when the sh** hits the fan :)

    First of all, thanks Frost for the good article. I also do not think you insulted anyone but the analogy made regarding belief is very important here. This is NOT a rational discussion and ppl get very angry when you get rational with them when they are emotional.

    Now some points i would like to make. I think you never claimed, that BM is bad in all circumstances…actually far from it. We have three possible skill trees and as a lot of players pointed out, BM is by far the best option when soloing or farming, as well as a more than aedequate PvP spec. Now your major point is raids and here especially ICC 25er (10er Hero I assume as well) progress. And here you are simply correct.
    While BM is more than enough for standard content, progress in those instances requires max dmg (at least atm) and here the BM is lacking. It is still a versatile spec but for this very narrow focus (after all we are talking about what, 2% of all WoW content atm?) not up to par (there are other classes and specs that are problematic as well, but thats not the topic here).
    While some ppl already did the numbers game, a very simple example. Festergut, the first real roadblock in ICC25. 40,8 mio HP, you have 5 mins, i.e. 300 sec. I will give the BM the 20% reduction in dps as they can keep their pet on the boss all the time. Now on avg our hunters, SV and MM run around 8k dps on him. A redcution by 20% would be a loss of 1600 dps. Now multiply that by the 300 sec and you are 480 000 hp for the whole fight. This is a bit over 1% in total. Doesn’t sound much but for everyone who knows this boss, 480 000 hp is the difference beweteen a 1% wipe, a prayer and a paladin bubble (DoTs ftw…if your lucky) or a kill. You can do your own maths if you have 2 BM with you. So if your PUGing some hero or even ICC10 those 20% don’t make that much of a difference (of course the margin of error is smaller as the fights take longer) but if you are in the current high end content it sure does.
    So it is not a problem of the people who like to play BM (I myself never liked the spec, I was actually glad when our raidleader asked me to become a SV in BC as buffhunter) but the simple fact is that Blizz says there are the specs, 2 are valid raid specs for high end content and one simply isn’t. It is still a lot better than BC where you had one (plus the buff hunter) or vanilla where there was MM (and if you had perfect equipment SV).
    So in the end, if you wanted to be on top of the game, you always had to respec, nothing new here. It has become easier, and it is no longer a one way track, but in the end if you decide to be among the top whatever on your server, you have to work with what Blizz gives you (and not the other way round).
    And soon we have to relearn our class anyway (and i always hated the dynamics of rogues :S).

    Cheers from Germany

    Hargrim (Die silberne Hand)

  69. Cyanidius says:

    I dont understand why BM is being thrown around as the “fun” spec. wouldnt the simplest rotation be the most boring? I have followed the trends throughout wotlk and now run an arp soft capped MM spec on this websites advice. To me “fun” is someone in a random heroic linking recount in awe of the 8k “the hunter” just pulled on on a 5 man boss.

  70. Snoggi says:

    Fun is in the eyes of the beholder. What’s boring to you may be great to someone else. In the same way, I don’t see the fun in being able to have a huge dps number in heroics. It’s just tickling your ego to me. But like I said, to each his own.

  71. rooger says:

    I am a MM raid spec. I prefer MM to all other trees atm.

    That being said. For knocking out my 1 daily random, I always go BM. 8k dps is just silly. 3k is probably overkill for heroics.

    With a tank of unknown quality, having your dps split between you and your pet makes threat easier to manage. Then the little bit of FI helps everyone feel warm and fuzzy inside, as well as bringing up the tank’s threat.

  72. Tullwinden says:

    I am a former BM Hunter, and I remember leveling all the way to 70 in BM spec. But the changes in the game and Blizzard changing the way it was done made me become a MM hunter. If you are a truly concerned hunter that wants to do more damage in the raid and be a benefit not only for you and those around you then is needed to change spec. I do love BM and I wish Blizzard will do something about this class to make it once again a top contender in the game, but Is a fact: If you are raiding (specially on a pug and you don’t do the DPS needed) you get booted out.

  73. Zymry says:

    okay let’s see if I can better explain the Bob analogy

    A BM hunter is choosing (and yes it is a choice I am not a smart man and I have lack of fine motor control and *I* have learned all 3 hunter specs, 2 mage specs, and a tankadin spec.) to not do 20 to 30% less damage. And they are doing so for “fun” or “rp”

    Pantsless Bob is choosing to not do as much damage by not wearing pants and by using green or blue gems. He again is making such a choice for some RP reason or other. Except his choice “loses” less than the 20 to 30%.

    So a less than optimal choice is being made by both for the same reasons.

    One choice is spec, one is gear but they both have the same outcome. A change in either choice will yield more dps. The more “silly” choice (pantsless bob) has less of a downside (but is probably easier to fix).

    No one said BM (well okay neither frost , I, or any comments I recall seeing and taking seriously) hunters are stupid, or a noob.

  74. Catrie says:

    I used to play with a prot warrior who would do take off his pants for 5 mans. He wasn’t generating enough rage with them on, because he wasn’t having as much damage done to him. Maybe Bob needs to take off his pants for a similar reason. =p

  75. Friar Monkey says:

    I honestly don’t know why this is such an issue for BM hunters. The ability to dual spec eliminates the need to completely lose BM. I personally leveled and did extreme soloing using BM. There’s nothing like taking out level 82 elites in Icecrown by yourself.

    I switch over to my Survival spec (still getting good gear) when I want to do randoms. I want to get through them and make sure I carry my own weight. Just that simple.

  76. Snoggi says:

    The main issue is that people like to play a certain way and don’t like to be denied to do so WHEN-THEY-SUFFICE.

    Not doing enough dps is an entirely different issue and I doubt many BM hunters would fault a raid group/leader for not accepting them if they’re not good enough. However, being turned down if they’re good enough simply due to them having a different playing style is both harsh and annoying.

    Which also happens to be the main outcome of this article. To put it blunty, the average player will simply read that each and every BM is stupid and will never deal enough damage, not even in HC’s. Good intentions aside, that’s what this article will bring about: just another stick to beat BM hunters with.

  77. Myrdreon says:

    What i really missed tough, was a BM/MM or BM/SV comparison.

    You see.. BM hunters are less suited for hardcore raids. That means those playing BM either are alts on hardcore guilds or they arent that dedicated.

    That has consequences on gear as the mm/sv main gets the drop before they do. Or they dont raid as much meaning they see fewer drops: their gear again wont be best in slot.

    On top of that, there is no knowledge on buffs. Sure, the hunter will have it all. But there is no guarantee that the pets were also properly buffed. Be it an alt or non-hardcore group, that is exactly the situation where buffing the pet will be forgotten. Make no mistake here tough, in the BM tree and pet tree there is a total of 8 talents that buff the pet based on a %. Then there’s the pet talents where all 8 talents also scale on buffs.
    That means lacking buffs on either the pet or the hunter (as hunter stats are transferred to the pet as well) can significantly effect the dps numbers.

    Then there is the skill problem. Again, as its likely not so harcore or an alt, they will make a lot more mistakes on attack/cooldown choices, dying more often, missing autoshots etc.

    All this combined makes the comparison discutable. Where it is fair to assume everything went correct on the SV/MM hunters considering their numbers, the same cant be said on BM. Maybe those BM’s were on their top and its just weaker, or maybe they had less skill/gear/buffs or other conditions that caused their dps to be lower?

  78. Nighthaunter says:

    With the 2-piece T10 bonus (which has greater active time with BM, since it procs off auto shots, which BM do 20% more of) I managed to hit just under 8.4k DPS on Deathwhisper as BM – and between Invigoration, JoW and general buffs never dropped below 80% mana. This wasn’t even with optimising my gear for BM, I just respecced and changed 1 glyph.

    As marks or survival I’ve never hit this high before, though admittedly I didn’t have the 2nd piece of T10 last week either. Regardless I don’t think it would be enough to throw me over 10k as your 20-30% estimate would entail.

    On Festergut and Saurfang I found my dps was significantly higher given that more of my DPS was from my pet, and thus unaffected by movement. Again though I don’t have a direct comparison.

    That said I’m a ‘go where the dps is’ sort of hunter, I’ve always liked survival more than any other but Marks / BM might be my dual set up, if I can get out of being a replenishment buffer in 10′s.

  79. Raventiger says:

    I think (well I know as far as my wife is concerned) that point that has hacked off skilled BM’s about the Bob comparision is that there is no way that Bob would be matching a well played fully geared BM in dps. Yet Frost makes the statement that a BM hunter is giving up more dps than someone like Bob is. That’s a pretty big bow (if you’d pardon the pun) to draw.

    I’d also like to make one more point, and forgive me if this comes across harsh as it’s not supposed to. I think people need to be careful to write off those who disagree with Frost as just being ‘emotainally irrational’ ect. Frost’s article was spot on. The way he wrote it was offensive to a great many players and turned a number of good players that I know against him. Which is a shame, because as a long time lurker of this site, I know Frost knows his stuff.

  80. Zymry says:

    @Raventiger

    I don’t understand why “pantsless bob” is so annoying to everyone. I really don’t, perhaps you can explain it to me. His choices cost him less than 20% of his dps. Choosing BM is empirically shown to cost between 20 and 30%

    That being the case I have some questions 1) Why is one set of choices more “decried” than the other ? and 2) How is it offensive to point out that while you COULD be okay at something (assuming you are skilled enough to pull top bm numbers) you could also (all other things being equal) be doing 30% better ?

    If at my place of business a respected co-worker came to me and said “hey you know great job on meeting metrics but I noticed if you did this you could improve output by 30% and make things better for the store and easier on the new guy we hired” I certainly wouldn’t call him an elitist jerk and want to string him up by his uncommonly good looking gonads.

  81. Raventiger says:

    @Zymry

    Because there is no way someone dressed only in greens no buffs, no flasks no enchants, will be able to do 6Kdps, let alone the 9K that a fully geared, buffed, flasked, well played BM hunter can do. It’s a poor analogy.

  82. Raventiger says:

    Ok I’m having internet problems and wasn’t sure if my last post was made. Now that I’ve reconnected I can see that I have.

    Zymry first off just to make sure we are on the same page here, I agree with what Frost had to say. No one I’ve spoken to about Frost’s collumn thinks he was wrong in the point that he was making. It’s the way he made it that’s got people upset.

    Lets use your example. Say your respect co-worker came to you and said “hey you know great job on meeting metrics but I noticed if you did this you could improve output by 30% and make things better for the store and easier on the new guy we hired. *co-workers voice takes on a scornful and condescending tone* Oh and by the way, the fact that you haven’t been doing this before now, means that Dave, someone who has no business knowledge whatsoever, someone who is running their business into the ground, is a better Business person than you are!”

    Now tell me Zymry, how are you going to react? You

    Lets use your example, how would you react if your co-worker said that to you and spoke to you in a rude and condescending way. Cause by comparing fully geared, experianced and raid buffed hunters to someone like Bob who has no raid gear, no buffs, and no business being in a raid, is basically the same as your co-worker addressing you in the manner I outlined above.

    Again, the point was correct, output can be increased by 30% and the team will be better for it. The manner in which the message was conveyed was not very good though. And right or wrong, like it or not, that’s how Frost came across in his article.

  83. Raventiger says:

    Forgive me for the disjointed post above it’s 6am down here and I’ve been up all night and not quite with it. Hopefully the point I’m trying to make is clear though.

  84. Myrdreon says:

    Well, the point is the example. Its not about the tone and the 2nd phrase that you’re taking correctly. It should say more something like this:
    “hey you know great job on meeting metrics but I noticed if you did this you could improve output by 30% and make things better for the store and easier on the new guy we hired”

    1 month later:
    “Hey why arent you still using your old outdated system? Its really making things hard on the new guy and you’re wasting a lot of the company’s time and resources”

    2 months later:
    “hi there, i noticed you are still using the old system. You should really adapt, that new guy barely knows where the fax is but already does a better job then you. As you can see from him things really get easier, better and faster all of which you take benefit from.”

    3 months later:
    “Step into my office please. Alright, i’d really like to know why, after 3 months that clearly show improvement on the new system you are still using the old one. The new guy has been doing extra work to clear out the problems your slow ethics are causing. Im afraid we’ll have to lay you off if you keep refusing to do your job.”

    4 months later:
    “Alright X, i’ve given you 4 months to move along with the work. During this time i’ve given you several times to adapt and move along but you keep slacking behind. You have been notified and you clearly refuse to adapt. The new guy is off from work due to a breakdown as your failure to do your job put to much pressure on his shoulders. You should have known better. Maybe another company will accept your slow pace of work, we wont. Im going to have to lay you off.”

  85. Raventiger says:

    Myrdreon, if Frost had made his point in a similar manner to the way you have written (i.e the first time round, not the 1 month later), then I honestly believe that there wouldn’t be this blacklash. Unfortunately a lot of skilled BM hunters are going to read Frost’s post, and look at the manner in which he is addressing them and miss the point he is making entirely. Sad, but true.

  86. Zymry says:

    1) Maybe it’s because I am “used” to the way frost writes. or maybe it’s because we’re cut from the same-ish cloth but I don’t find him condescending.

    2) To use very simple quick math, I don’t think the comparison is that pantless bob is outdpsing epicly panted BM hunter it’s that pantless bob is hurting HIS OWN dps (as compared to what he would be doing in pants) less than panted BM hunter is hurting his (compared to what he would be doing in sv/mm)

    ie:
    IF pantless bob does (using round numbers because I am lazy) 10kdps then bob in pants COULD do 11500 dps if he wore pants, gemmed, ate, and flasked so he’s doing about 15% less than he could be doing

    IF highly skilled epic pants BM hunter is doing 10kdps (just because I like round numbers not because pantless bob does the same dps) Heck just so no one’s nose gets out of joint Let’s say epic pants BM hunter does 20k dps (twice that of pantsless bob) he COULD be doing 24k – 26k so he is doing 20 to 30% less than he could be doing as compared to himself.

    At no point does the situation say pantsless bob is doing more dps compared to epicpants bm hunter, nor does it compare epicpants’ raw dps to pantsless’ dps. It merely compares the end results that “non-optimal” bob is harming himself less than “non-optimal” hunter is harming himself.

    As to how I would react in the situation you gave I really can’t say. Upon noticing Dave struggling I’d start giving him advice. Not doing my best and not helping others is anathema to me. **shrug**

  87. Raventiger says:

    @Zymry

    Direct quote from Frost’s article: “Now understand that raiding as BM is much larger DPS loss than what Bob is doing.”

    You asked me why some people are offended by the Bob example. I’ve explained the reasons some very good BM hunters I’ve spoken with have given me. To summarise, Frost compared skilled BM hunters with a guy, who has no reason being present at a raid in the first place.

    The situation I gave didn’t ask how you would react to Dave. I asked how would you react to the Co-worker, who a. Give you correct advice that will improve your business and most importantly, b. Told you that because you weren’t running your business previously in the manner that would increase your output by 30%, Dave (who doesn’t have the first idea about how to run a business successfully and who is failing miserably at it) is a better business person than you.

    I find it interesting that both Myrdredon and yourself present the inital example making the the point a polite way. The point I’m trying to make here is that if Frost had presented his point in a similar manner, there wouldn’t be this backlash.

    Regardless I’m repeating myself and I see little point in doing so, so I’ll stop. Hopefully, you can see the point I’m making, it’s not the message, it’s how the message is communicated.

    Regards,

    Raventiger.

  88. Zymry says:

    hmm let’s see if this explanation gets it through better.

    “Now understand that raiding as BM is much larger DPS loss than what Bob is doing.”

    raiding as BM as opposed to mm/sv is a 20 to 30% loss (as compared with itself)
    raiding pantless as opposed to raiding with pants is a 10 to 15% loss (as compared with itself)

    Frost isn’t comparing the raw number dps loss from raiding as BM (vs mm or sv) to the raw dps loss of raiding pantless (vs panted) he is comparing the percentages

    okay team USA is in a hockey game and shoots on goal 100 times. so it’s potential goals per game is 100 it misses/ is blocked 30% of the time so it ends up with 70 goals (it must have been playing team Africa in ice hockey)

    Team Canada shoots on goal 60 times(thus it’s potential goals per game is 60) and is blocked 15% of the time so it ends up with 51 goals

    Team USA has missed a greater percentage of the time than Team Canada. No one is (or logically can) arguing that 51 goals is more than 70 goals.

    Team Canada is closer to it’s total potential, but it’s potential is lower.

    (let’s not get caught up in national pride or anything it just seemed a decent analogy I am Canadian)

  89. Zymry says:

    If Dave has no business acumen, and for whatever reason he can not gain more business acumen then he is operating at 100% of his 0 potential

    If I am operating at 70 business acumen, but could be at 100 business acumen then I am only operating at 70% of my potential and should be striving for more. Dave is in fact operating at a higher percentage of his potential. My 70% will be more effective than his 100% though.

    My co-worker is welcome to invest in Dave though.

  90. Fradin says:

    I totally understood what you were saying Frost and if people dont want advice or hear the truth thats up to them, I to raid lead and I want all my raiders to perform the best they can . I to would not be impressed if someone decide to try and come to raid in a spec that could hurt the raid its like saying let your melee come in pvp specs etc its all all about whats best for the team. You imagine if every hunter turned up in BM spec i could see alot of fails happening , if you took 4 x BM hunters thats a total of 80% less hunter dps to the raid I am sure it would suffer. My guild has only just started ICC so everything is a bit of a struggle and being a raid leader i want the best group I can form and unfortunately if i had the chance BM would be the last spec i would take to the raid unless we need the pets buffs or debuffs. Do get me wrong I love hunters i play 2 and we have 14 hunters in the guild but not 1 of them raids as BM .

  91. Gaebrill says:

    Sounds like the hate made even your black heart quiver, Frost.

    Don’t stress mate. As has been said above, most WHU readers will be fine with it.

    It infuriates me and I consider it to be pretty offensive when people don’t bring their A game to our social raids and we wipe over and over. What a complete waste of everyone’s time! /wrists

    There’s no point getting nostaligc over a talent build. Respec, move on, deal death.

    Keep the controversial articles like this one rolling out. What a discussion! Incredible work!

    Gaeb

  92. Snoggi says:

    The title suggested that it was an informative title. Instead, halfway, it turned into a opinion (rant) on why people shouldn’t be allowed to raid as BM’s.

    It’s kinda like a scientist trying to determine if the earth is heating up, and then shouting it should be if he finds out it doesn’t.

    Frost should’ve chosen either the opinion OR the informative way. Right now, you got an article that both states that BM’s can raid well and that they cannot. It can’t be yes and no in this case.

    And all in all, if a BM pulls his weight, and then some, who’re you to complain? Why are you even ‘offended’ or ‘infuriated’? If the raid is any good, then ‘more than enough’ equals ‘more than more than enough’ 99% of the time. The outcome of the article was that BM’s can raid just fine. Period. Don’t like it? Fine, just get another hunter.

  93. Snoggi says:

    And for he record, I see no reason why Beast Masters aren’t allowed to make emotional decisions, when you all decide that any Beast Master (including those pulling their weight) aren’t allowed to join raids because you FEEL infuriated/offended/etc. about hem doing so.

  94. Frostheim says:

    I thought the article lived up to its title, though perhaps not what BM hunters would have liked to have seen. In short the article was: (title) Can beast mastery raid? (article) In the right circumstances, yes, but they shouldn’t, and here’s why.

    But again, if you’re okay with Bob as long as he makes his 7.6k, you should be okay with BM as long as they make their 7.6k.

  95. Zymry says:

    So um in an article that says BM is indeed raid viable and can be empirically shown to pull sufficient numbers to meet dps requirements you are finding issue with what again ?

    Here’s the numbers that show you CAN do what you want to, Here’s more numbers that show that it is not the most efficient method to accomplish your (or your raids task)

    Sure you CAN put regular unleaded in a cassey 135 aircraft and taxi it from Maine to Texas but it isn’t the best way of doing it.

  96. KierjanThunderstout says:

    Heres a few points I thought of:
    First, Ive played a hunter since little under a month after the game came out. This doesnt make me special, it doesnt make me better than anyone else. I chose a hunter, and I stuck to it. Since then, in Classic, BC and WotLK, hunter have seen many, many changes. Sometimes we were OP, sometimes we were nerfed. I always studied which spec would benefit my raid the most, and would have to change often. I did not just have to learn how to play all three talent trees, I had to learn all three, several times over as they experienced major revisions. Each time, I would have to drop old habits and pick up new ones. Sometimes I hate the changes, but I learn to adapt, and even appreciate them. Why cant the die-hard BMs at least try something else?

    Second, now theres dual-spec. Before, I would have to changes to spec that would gimp myself in soloing or pvp. Now I have have two, and even carefully balance them for all types of play. Its no longer a difficult ordeal to try out and practice a new spec. If its not working right away, you can always bounce between the two until it does.

    Third, for two years of my game time as a hunter, I was also a raid leader. I had to learn not only the hunter, but also the other 8 classes. Could I have picked up a warrior and started tanking myself? No, I lack the finely tuned reflexes and twitch gameplay that player has earned. But I understand how he works, and what he does, in a very fine sense. In other classes, each spec represents a game play type: Healing, Tanking, Ranged DPS, or Melee DPS. However, several classes have all of their specs fall into one category, but the represent a different part of the game: Solo play, PvP, PvE, Raiding, etc. In no other class, is every spec able to be adapted to a single role. Hunters are no different. Warriors dont tank in arms. Pallies dont heal in retribution. Those are extreme examples. Less extreme examples, are how certain Mage, Rogue or Warlock specs do less damage, or have less threat control, but are more suited to PvP or Soloing. They are no different. Not every Hunter spec is oriented to raiding, nor should they be. To think so, just makes us look bad to the other classes who know their place. BM is not designed to be a swiss army knife spec. Part of its “power” or “effectiveness” is steered towards pet hardiness and survivability (two things nearly useless in a raid) and away from total damage. If it was not this way, it would be imbalanced and better than SV and MM.

    Four, to raid is a privilege. It has been, and will be, the height of WoW gameplay and challenge. To do it, you must be the best you can be. If youre not up to it, there are lots of other ways to play. Now, Blizzard has made it a lot easier than it used to be. Theres are plenty of raids now, with all sorts of skill requirements. But that does not change the fact, that you need to get together with 9, 19, 24, or even 39 other players, who will rely on you to be the best you can be, the same as you will rely on them. You would be angry if the tank used a two-hander (other than a DK or druid, of course) because he thought thats the way he should play. Hes gonna do less threat, and take more damage. You might, and probably will get by, but its gonna be harder on everyone else. The same if your priest went shadow before a boss. Vampiric embrace might get you by, but you can see how it will be worse. BM isnt different. Youre making it harder on everyone by not doing the best you can.

  97. Zahlo says:

    Firstly,
    Fradin – Your numbers are off…
    4 hunters doing 20-30 % less does not equal 80-120% loss…..
    It simply makes 20-30 % less than the total potential of all four.

    Other classes have multiple specs for multiple roles, PvP, PvE, Healing, etc. So BM should take a cue from these classes and use the best spec available for raiding?
    what is best? Lets look at three equivalently geared hunters, Steve(SV), Mark(MM), and Brom(BM)
    Perhaps during boss fight A ( a stand up, drag out, brainless tank ‘n spank) Steve and Mark both beat out Brom by by 15%, and maybe Mark edged out Steve by 2%. Maybe not. Steve’s Hunting Party Kept everybody in mana longer, and Marks Trueshot helped out the whole raid in AP. Sure seems like Brom dragged down the whole raid, yes?

    In Boss fight B, The Big Nasty drops puddles of cheap beer to avoid or die, and has to be tanked in a nine pointed star pattern around the whole IceCrown Tavern, has a aura of damage in melee range(Epic BO), an occasional raid-wide Beer Belch for 6K dmg, and drops raid Fears every 60 seconds.
    Steve refused to waste mana mending his pet after the last trash pull, so he loses his pet 30 seconds not the fight.
    Mark has had to spend so much time keeping an eye on the disgusting puddles of ridiculously bad domestic, and he loses his pet 60 seconds in. There is 0% chance that they are going to stand around to rez a pet that is only 10% (if that) of their DPS at best. But now they are also out Howl’s AP buff. ( who are we kidding right? They brought wolves.)
    Meanwhile Everybody is having to dance out of puddle, and stay in range while Nasty is tanked all over the taverns dance floor. (Which is, incidentally, alternately lit up by blazing Neon Goblin Racing signs, and a Saddle shaped Disco ball.)
    Healz are working their little tree limbs off to keep everybody up. The tank is doing his job of maintaining himself and at pretty much constant near-death, and Melee DPS is doin their best to keep up with Tanky, and not make his job harder.
    Doh, AoE fear time. Every body who isnt human and/or cant pop a PvP trinket quick enough ends up smelling like stale beer, standing in a puddle of doom. Healz manages to keep everybody alive, though the lock looks like he hasn’t even taken a hit.
    Rinse, repeat.
    Eventually, B.Nasty goes down. Yayness. Epik Phat lewtz time! WHAT? He only dropped Cloth, Plate, And a SP trinket!?!?? ( /sigh)
    (Rinse off, repeat again, endlessly for rep. /biggersigh)
    Now this is basically a survival fight, and DPS in not the biggest concern. However, Brom pet had enough health to not only make it through the first 60 sec., but the whole fight; thanks to SB, and cheap, well timed MP’s from a concerned master. When everybody else went Ooky-Spooky, Brom B-Wrathed it, not only avoiding puddles, but improving his and his pets DPS through what would otherwise be a damage free period for our pungent baddie.
    And even one point in SB means heals had to work on keeping Brom alive that much less.

    Is BM a little lackluster right now? Sure. Hunters in general need a pretty good overhaul. But they have have Utility the other two Specs do not.
    Is BM As Bad as ALL THAT? No, not according to my own data. (Which does not agree with Frost’s. Such are the ways of Life and Research.)
    Worth kicking someone out of a raid for? Depends..
    Ask yourself what kind of Group Are you interested in?
    Is it a Raid of understanding, amiable ADULT people who enjoy the game for what its worth, and won’t be micromanaging everybody else’s performance? Then maybe after five wipes, and history shows that a person is severely under-performing, and not improving, they should get a Kick vote. ( like the 2700 GS DK recently, who was pulling a whole 800 DPS. or the Pally healz that refused to heal anyone but the tank in PoS)
    Or is it a Raid of the Puerile Bullying Elitists guild, who glean all of their self-worth from A GAME, or who only seem to play the game to try to desperately prove to everybody, ANYBODY out there in Cyberland, that their winkies REALLY aren’t that small.

  98. Bernard says:

    I find it interesting that people have found the example of Bob offensive.

    When you look around your PUGs, or check out statistics on the Armory parses (via Wow-heroes or similar) you see that players of all classes routinely make decisions that reduce their dps output.
    A volume of hunters are using the wrong gems, cheaper enchants, gear designed for other classes (expertise!) and so on.

    Everyone is entitled to decide where “good enough” is for them.
    But don’t be surprised when the guilds you apply to set the bar somewhat higher…

  99. Zakhar says:

    I don’t come to praise Frost or to bury him. I guess I would just say that wow is just an extension of life. There is little room for individualism or an alternate view. I don’t argue with the numbers between the hunter specs, that’s what Bliz wanted and that’s what they got. I just think that it is a sad commentary that we get so focused on progression and mathematical models that we refuse to have an environment that everybody gets to enjoy.

    I was BM, tried SV and hated it and have tried to compromise by going MM for “the good of the raid” (or more specific to have something to do on raid nights other than farm or do randoms). You know what the net result is, the raid does well enough but I’m getting bored. So are some of the tanks I know that have to be tanks or they don’t get to raid. Part of good leadership is making sure that every member of your team is getting something out of what they do. Sacrifice for the good of the raid is important but balance is even more so for the long haul.

    And Hrist, in regards to your earlier “parents of a dying child” comment and defense of said comment, I’m guessing you are in the 20′s-30s range age-wise. Me, I retirement age. You remind me of me 30+ years ago, very sure that because I spoke my true feelings and had some facts to back them up, I could say what I wanted. The truth is the truth, after all. Over the years though, I came to understand another truism, what goes around comes around. Arrogance and self righteousness, no matter how based in fact they are, can become a lofty precipice from which to fall back to reality. I made comments like yours when I was younger. I have since been humbled years later by having found myself and child on the other side of a similar situation. I learned that while what I said was technically right, it was hurtful and wasn’t really necessary. The only real beneficiary had been my ego and I was exacting a much greater price now. I don’t offer this as a criticism but, as a suggestion. Think about what you say and how you say it. The truth may be the truth but, there are no free lunches and payback usually is a dog. It is my sincere wish that you do not experience a moment of clarity in which you feel the icy shock of your comments coming home to roost as mine did.

  100. Armin says:

    I agree and also not agree with Frost.

    1) On the one hand, wow is about teamwork. A hunter does dps and should be in the top. It should carry others, because several other dps classes simply cannot do as much dps as hunters. They got other treats. A hunter not carrying aothers is teh same as a paladin not buffing the raid. You are not doing your part of the teamwork.

    2) On the other hand, I have carried many times others, but also have been carried in other occasions. The only people who really decide is the team itself. In my guild we often raid with less optimal groups. Simply because we allow teammembers to level up other chars, try new stuff, or simply allow them to play on their non-optimal alts. Now our raid team isn’t as good as Frost’s is. That is the tradeoff.

    We choose that and we have the right to do so. But Frost has the right to decide in his raid, he doesn’t want that.

    Raiding BM can be done, but it forces your teammates to work harder than they have to. Whether that is OK, is up to the team and nobody else. If they are fine with it, it is fine.

  101. Snoggi says:

    If the defenition of a good raider is someone who ‘carries his weight plus a little extra’, then it shouldn’t matter what spec people play since everyone has a little extra just in case. If everyone is better than required, then nobody is getting carried by anyone else, regardless of any claims the top dps may make.

    Bringing additional dps to a raid will only have any noteworthy effect if someone else does not have enough dps, but as you claim, those people shouldn’t be allowed to be in that raid. If they are, then you’re just being kind, so essentially, it comes down to the fact that you’re willing to help others out more than those that don’t respec.

    But for the most part, if people need to suffice and then some to be allowed to join, then the only factor affected by the amount of and then some is the time it takes, which your personal dps will only affect a little. So taken at face value, your philosophical issue with the Beast Master’s choice is that it takes a few seconds longer to down a boss…yes, that’s really significant in a human lifetime.

  102. Melenaus says:

    @Zahlo: I think his numbers make sense if you look at them from a single person’s perspective. i.e. losing 120% dps would essentially mean you’re raiding with 3 and 4/5 dpsers. (100% of a raider, then another 20% of a raider)

  103. cicie / smyrftai says:

    Mucho gracias for both the wow.com article and this post. I very much agree with you, and I wish others could just see the simple logic behind your arguments (facts!). The problem I think is mere attachment and emotional ties. People are unreasonable when there’s sentimentality involved. A lot of the pro-BM raiding hunters are probably just really attached to the BM spec because it’s what they leveled with and it’s what they know best. There are too many lazy players out there who aren’t willing to go to awesome websites like this and actually learn their class mechanics so they can play to the best of their ability and contribute more to raids. Thanks for posting this; I hope you made it through to some people.
    <3

  104. Kazador says:

    Aside from the debatable conclusion that raiding as BM is irresponsible (depends how hard core your guild is), I’m concerned that everyone bought the “BM is -30% DPS” bit, hook line and sinker. The data from the top 20 hunters of each spec is skewed, since the top BM hunters are likely to be less hard-core and less geared.

    I just put together a spreadsheet version for Frost and everyone to take a look at. I used Frost’s current gear and MM spec, and then switched his talents, glyphs, and Pet talents over to my BM spec, without regemming or changing anything else. The BM spec was behind by 9%, not 30%. We could probably narrow that gap a little more by regemming, etc. Skilled BM DPS is also boosted greatly by syncing major cooldowns with Bestial Wrath, which might narrow that gap yet a little more compared to what the spreadsheet shows. I’m aware that spreadsheets are an imperfect tool, but they’re not as consistently skewed against BM as the top 20 numbers are likely to be. This data is as valid as what Frost posted, if not more.

    Take a look at the spreadsheet, I made it public. On Femaledwarf.com, go to Public settings, look up Frostheim MM, and Frostheim BM, and compare.

    Let me know what you think.

  105. rain says:

    LMFAO!!!

    Kazador, i love ya! :D
    i, for one, love your spreadsheet and found it to be ridiculously funny (in a good way)! yes, there’s a 800 dps difference; however, i don’t see 800 dps as a big deal and i will not be swayed by a “magic number” that others my sheep behind. i thank “being bored at work” for allowing me to find your enlightening information. i am a BM at heart and will always be, but i found myself changing to SV to raid after hearing so much anti-BM raiding info both in game and out. do i hate SV? no, but what i hated was all the “BM can’t raid” talk i was getting while starting to raid. yes, i was scared to change because i heard that SV/MM were “harder” to play due to priority/rotation; however, i can say that i can (and do!) top dps charts while using 1 (gasp!) main attack macro. am i always #1? no. does that bother me? no. as long as im in the top 5 for 10man or top 10 for 25man, i’m happy (after all, it’s just a game). now that my gs is over 5k i will be testing out BM in 10mans to see for myself how it goes (thanks Kazador ^_^)

    although i have learned much from this site, mistakes can be made. i do feel that the worng words and tones have been used at times that can (and did) offend people, both from the main artical and the comments posted there after. the only more i will say on this is: if an expample is needed to explain an example then that first example wasn’t very… universal… to begin with.

    i do feel that trees should be clearly specialized, and from what i see thats what blizz seems to be doing with mastery system in Cat coming out soon. after research i took to looking at the hunter trees in this way: BM for leveling, SV for raiding, and MM for PVP. am i saying i want to see a bunch of SVs in all my raid soup? hell no (lol)! but i do like things, in general, having a main use.

    basicly, lets all have fun :) hard-core BMs try out the other two trees to see if you really like them or not. non-BMs and other classes be nice to the BM who would like to join your raid and let her/him down in a productive way if you would rather not have that tree in your raid. after all, another person wont learn from you if you’re being an jerk to them.

  106. tranereck says:

    I’ve never felt compelled to post on a wow forum but I think i’m going to. The reason why BM hunters are upset about post like this is because if your not a BM hunter, you’ve never been kicked from a raid for taking out your pet.
    The reason I play BM, is because I never been showed to be a different spec. Honestly. The 20-30% you claim is lost by BM is missing many variables. I play BM with an arp spec, so looking at my gear, you would geuss I was an MM hunter. I still get whispers from people from my guild who have raided and been out dps’d by me multiple times saying “WTF ARE YOU BM!?” And i kinda like replying “bro, im always BM.” I pull 8.5-9.5k dps on most ICC bosses because your spread sheet doesn’t take in count a spec’s utitilty. BM with an arp build seperates the damage into 2/3 of the damages is yours and 1/3 is your pet. On any movement boss, the BM hunter should keep his pet on the boss at all time to chew it and keep the damage up. With enough arp, you will be doing alot of physical damage yourself and the quick damage output on adds is no less then the MM hunter. While the MM hunter, who is 95% of his own damage isn’t attacking the boss, 1/3rd of yours is, and he isn’t doing more dmg to adds then the BM hunter.
    You all need to understand the reason BM hunters get upset, is because we are BM hunters lol. As for that tank and spank bosses, BM doesn’t fall behind MM a signifigant amount. I have always been BM and did find a flaw in 50% of dps being from your pet, but when the damage can be evenly split, you underestimate the potential dps of a BM hunter. And like I said, I haven’t been proven wrong.