I’ve been getting an increasing number of emails about how to run successful raid teams lately. Here is an excerpt of an email that hits many of the themes raised (reprinted with permission, name withheld):
I have a question, not about hunters, but about raiding. My guild is struggling to raid, progress and hold onto members, and since you guys seem to have a successful raiding group going, I thought I’d ask your advice.
We only have 10 or 11 active raiders, and members of my guild have a few problematic tendencies… There are a lot of restless people getting ready to leave, whether because they want to progress or they’re being turned down by the raid leader. There are also some people who are loyal to the guild but so flustered they don’t even know where to begin.
I don’t know, we’re having a bit of a guild identity crisis, I think. We’ve always been more of a friendly, family guild, and there are people who care more about that, while there are people who desperately want to raid. I guess I’m trying to figure out if we can balance those two goals.
I chose this email because it hits exactly on the head all of the common issues that I get emailed about, in particular: casual friends & family guilds that want to raid and that identity crisis. Are you a casual guild, or are you a raiding guild? Can you be both?
People who want to be hardcore raiders don’t have these issues. They know what to do: they work their way up through any content they can and apply to more and more successful raiding guilds where they are evaluated purely on their performance and attendance.
But people who aren’t interested in cutting edge progression, server first kills, and raiding 4 or more nights a week but still want to raid successfully have a bigger challenge.
The Problem
I think a lot of the problem comes from Blizzard and the guild structure, as Darkbrew and I discussed a bit on the Hunting Party Podcast 13.
In concept a guild is your community, the people you hang out with because you enjoy their company and want to chat and joke and get together for achievements or leveling or heroics. A raid is a team that is trying to accomplish specific competitive goals (beat the bosses).
The problem that I see so many people get into — and my guild has struggled with this as well — is the idea that the guild and the raid team are the same thing. And to put it simply, they are not. In hardcore raiding guild they usually are the same (you can’t perform in the raid and you’re out of the guild), but a successful casual raiding guild needs this separation.
It’s a mindset thing, that opens the way to successful casual raiding.
The Frostheim Philosophies
I have two philosophies about what is required for a successful casual raid team.
1.) The team comes first. The good of the team is more important than the good of the individual.
2.) The raid team is not the guild.
Number 1 seems obvious to a lot of people, but it has significant ramifications that will guide the structure of your casual raid team – and it’s a bit beyond the scope of this already long-winded post.
Number 2 is what seems to require a major shift in mindset for most casual guilds that want to raid.
The Raid Team Separate from the Guild
My guild is a friendly and casual guild that likes to raid. We raid 25-mans and have several 10-man raid teams in the guild (divided by time zones and friendships) and each of these 10-man teams is completely autonomous. They each have their own rules, their own strats, and their own way of approaching raiding.
The team that Hrist and I run, known as MNK, is probably the best example of how the raid team is a separate entity from the guild. We are the only raid team in the guild that has established hard rules for our members – none of them were required by the guild at large – including gear requirements, required consumables, voice chat, etc. And then we all worked like crazy to help each other meet those requirements.
At one time MNK was composed of members from two different guilds (with some not in any guild) — which worked fine. We were a raid team, not a guild. We didn’t need all of our teammates to be in the same guild as us. Most of us have alts in a little alt guild that we use only for the guild bank to store mats just for our 10-man team. We have our own custom chat channel that we use to communicate MNK-specific stuff. Our raid team is completely independent and autonomous from the guild, even though now almost all of us are members of the guild.
Now MNK raids two nights a week, for up to 3 hours each night (usually a bit less). We joke around, we like each other, we work stubbornly to progress, and we have fun. We’re absolutely a casual raid team, and we’ve cleared all of ulduar, have a good stack of raid achievements, and are currently working our way through heroic TotC.
My point here is that being casual and being successful do not conflict with each other. Your choice is not fail casually or succeed hardcore. You can raid casually and successfully.
And of course my larger point is that your raid team is a different thing than your guild. My guild would never judge a member based on their raiding skills or gear — we care about the person, the member of the community. But MNK, if you want to raid with us, you better show up with gems and chants and flasks and food and know the strats and be on vent. And no, just because you’re in the guild doesn’t mean you can raid with us — because we’re not the guild, we’re a raid team.
Frostheim’s Theories of Casual Raid Team Leadership
Now I realize that I haven’t given much in the way of practical answers to the questions I’m being asked about raiding groups. But I will.
In fact, I’m going to start a series of posts on my theories of how to build and run a successful raid team. However, it all starts with a certain mindset: the guild is not the raid; the raid is not the guild. Your raid team is its own entity.
Just because you don’t let the hunter in greens with 20 points in each talent tree and pure steady shot rotation into your raid doesn’t mean you’re a bad person: it doesn’t mean you’re being exclusive, it doesn’t mean you’re elitist. And most of all it doesn’t mean you’re now a raiding guild, or a hardcore guild.
Because the raid team is not your guild.
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good, i hope you start soon with those posts about how to build and run a raid team, cause im thinking on starting one since my guild is having those problems. we are all friends, we joke around, but we failed on doing any raid in 3 days in a row now because lack of people, in fact, if only 1 or 2 members dont show up, we are screwed and cant do a thing. only dungeons and that kinda sucks.
This is excellent! I’ve searched for a long time for what you are saying here. Our guild faced this exact problem, where some of us wanted to progress and raid, but the atmosphere of the guild was very casual and more of a friends kind of thing.
As simple as this concept sounds, it really does seem to be a foreign way of thinking in this game. My realm is basically made up of these guilds that get together, progress through whatever the current content it to about 90%, then for whatever reason they fall apart.
It’s frustrating to see when my guild has existed since before the realm went online and we all transferred over, but we can’t get any players who are interested in progressing to join. We are planning to begin regrouping (currently most of us have moved our mains to other “raiding guilds” in order to get geared up and get some progression, and maybe get our names out there…) to begin raiding again in Cata. I think these concepts will be put to good use.
Member
I’m glad you have decided to do this. I’m trying to keep my raids as casual and not hardcore and yet still progress. I’m curious to see your views on this. All I’m doing right now is build moral and an identity, since we are a fairly new guild.
I’m feelin’ this.
I think it’s an excellent observation of the problems. I have a differing view when it comes to the philosophy you put forth.
” 1.) The team comes first. The good of the team is more important than the good of the individual.
2.) The raid team is not the guild.”
From my perspective, this is perhaps too simplistic. Guilds, raids and teams are made up of members. Even though I’m an advocate of synergy, where the result exceeds the sum of the parts, I think this misses the dynamics of social groups.
Think of it this way, do you remember the conundrum from the Star Trek movies: The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the one vs. The needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many? Guilds are social entities made up of individuals. There is a direct relationship between the meeting of individual needs and the level of dysfunction.
I guess what I’m trying to say in a very, very long winded manner, is that from my perspective, there needs to be more balance. What happens when there are more guild members than teams to support them? A raid that isn’t based on a guild, is a PUG. I don’t happen to be someone who gets left out and I frequently offer up my spot to others. I see the frustration of those that sign up yet, don’t get to go. However, we are a casual raiding guild, with teams. We members who are getting disappointed and in some case leaving because there isn’t enough room for them.
It has been my experience that when the focus is the team, it is not long before the guild is floundering because it lost sight of it’s members and that sometimes, the needs of the one do outweigh the needs of the many. Maybe we need to add a third point for balance
Thanks for posting a great article.
Zakhar, I see what you are saying, but I wonder how many guilds actually have a problem with to many players vs not enough. From my experience, the later tends to be true. I’m in a guild based on a meetup group out of Phoenix, AZ so we all know each other in real life, and the problem we are facing is not enough progression within the guild. Last night we were talking about ways of recruiting more guildies, but this blog-post has really changed the way I think about the whole situation. Now I’m thinking of recruiting raiders vs guildies. I know I have declined raid groups because they wanted me to leave my guild and join theres, but the loyalty I have for my guildies was stronger.
Excellent post–looking forward to more in the series!
Great post, I just left my old casual guild two nights ago to get into a guild that is doing 25man progression. I tried to do this with a core group of raiders and ran into some different issues. All but one of the team members I invited to be part of my “Raid Team” were former members of my previous guild. Most of them left the casual guild to get some real raiding done. I went forward with the same idea that you posted in your article. It was not a guild raid, only certain “raiders” I invited.
My problem came with group makeup and attendance. Because a lot of the good raiders had left the casual guild they now had different raid schedules. To get a balanced group with the right about of each class/spec I had to invite 15-18 people including some of their alts. The first night we jumped back into Ulduar10 and blew through the easy bosses and popped Hodir in 1 shot. We jumped over to Mimiron and almost got him down but it was getting late. The following week we decided to extend the lockout and get the rest of the keepers. We also had plans to go back later and bang out some hard modes in the following weeks. That next week we couldnt even field a full 10man. I pulled the following invites from the schedule because I could not get the commitment.
So I guess what I am trying to say is in theory cross guild “Raid Teams” is a great idea if you can get the commitment from a set number of people for a set weekly schedule.
Thank you for this. You have put into words what I have been struggling with for a long time – separating the guild from the raid.
When put in these fairly simple terms, it provides a good way to discuss elitism, clicks, and being perceived as not being nice to guild mates who are not ready to go. The idea of a minimum set of criteria for entering the team is also a god way for those who are ‘raid-curious’ to achieve some goals and see if they are willing to invest the time it takes to become a raider.
Too often, it appears that some feel entitled to participate in a raid team because they are part of the guild. Having strict policies about entering a raid team puts all guild members on the same playing field and can help to elevate hurting someone’s feelings. Taking this concept one step further, having a multi-guild raid team removes ones perception of entitlement all together.
Again, thank you for this … it’s time to start an off-guild raid team =D.
Our guild is going through this very thing atm. Our top-tier members are slowly starting to drop off and move to other guilds…well…because there aren’t enough top-tier members to even fill a 10 man. I’ve only been in this particular guild for about two months. I had joined them because they were, or seemed to be, on a progression track. I’ll stick with them for now and try to assist the GM with sparking more interest in stimulating raid activity. Already turned her on to this article as food for thought.
Perhaps Blizz might consider implementing a ‘Create Raid Team’ function similar to Create Guild. Lets say a player could join and remain in a guild, for the social aspect, but they could also apply for and join a top-notch raid teams. Heck..Blizz could run Global competitions every so often where international Raid Teams would compete (fastest time, highest dps….) in various instances. a Raid Team could only hold so many toons (i.e..10, 25…) and would be streamlined for raiding purposes only. I don’t know…just a thought.
It will be curious how cross guild raid teams survive when Cataclysm goes live and Guild leveling starts.
Admin
Well I know it won’t affect MNK. We’re all in a guild and will happily work toward our own guilds’ leveling goals. Our raid team is something different.
However, I should note that I think a cross guild raid team is much easier for a 10-man. When you get to 25-man raids, it becomes a lot more difficult to manage all the people.
Thank you for this.
What do you do about recruiting to the guild? Right now we have one overburdened raid leader that recruits people to the guild that he wants in his raid. I’m conflicted with this, because sometimes these people are not the type I would recruit to the guild or want to spend time with.
To Colmillos: it happens a lot on our server which has a low horde population (I’m Horde). Most of the guilds I’ve been associated with have members from all over the country and Canada, even though it’s a west coast server. I’ve been in multiple guilds both raiding and non-raiding over the years I’ve been playing.
It’s awesome that your guildies are people you know in RL. We do recruit raiders, 80s only but, variances in schedules can contribute to the problem. for a month, we had 15 people on friday nights. the last 2 weeks, 3.
To Frostheim, how do you (or do you) justify excluding guildies with good stats (not the 20-20-20, pure steady rotation type)? Is that not a problem? If not, why? I’m not challenging, just curious
Admin
When we needed more people for MNK, we first went to the guild looking to recruit. However at the time there was no one who could fill our needed roles who was free during our play times.
Now our team is full, and we’re not going to ask our regulars to sit. Part of forming a raid team is getting enough people. Another part is not having too many people.
But to answer your question — we didn’t bypass the guildies, we went to them first. However we would totally exclude or boot a guildie who wasn’t willing or able to follow our rules.
Great post Frost!!
very current:P
I like thinking of being part of the Raid Team as being part of the varsity team in school. You don’t get an automatic invite to be on a varsity team. Participants need to commit and work toward being of the team. And to keep your spot on the team, you need to work on making yourself and your team members better:D I also think that all people who want to be a on a team need to know what the expectations are for those members, and must be held accountable for those expectations. I also believe that if a person puts the time in to meet the expectations their spots on the team are guaranteed.
But i want to close with the main point in Frost’s post…. The Raid IS NOT the GUILD:D and what is good for the guild is not always good for the raid and vicesaversa:D
I totaly agree with this point of view.
I have always been a “casual gamer” : not playing at traditional raid hours. And that dindn’t alowed me to see much PVE stuff. But in WOLTK, with some quite easy raids at the beginning, I got the chance to meet realy a lot of people during pugs. And that helped me making a good contact list. First of all, people I knew I would have fun with. And second, well, that they knew what they were doing. Of caurse some of my guild mates got along but I did refuse some of them because even if they are good players they just wouldn’t get along with the “spirit”.
And finally, after a long time, we could do 2 or 3 raids every week even if we had to change some of the players. A lot of people told us they didn’t think a pug could achieve the hard modes we finaly got to get. did achieve a few hard modes in ulduar. And all along having a lot of fun. But what I told them is that this is not a pug. It realy is a team of people that like to play together whithout having to be in the same guild. It’s not the kind of pug that starts whit one person on the /4 LFG.
Hello. My guild is currently going through something very similar as described in the email prompting this posting. I was wondering, if I provide a link to your site and a citation pointing to you, would it be OK if I copied and pasted this on our guild’s web site? I’ve sent a few people this way, but most think it’s only got information that helps hunters, though it’s clearly not.
Zakhar quote “It has been my experience that when the focus is the team, it is not long before the guild is floundering because it lost sight of it’s members and that sometimes, the needs of the one do outweigh the needs of the many. Maybe we need to add a third point for balance” end quote
This strikes me as very wise, guilds like ours need to make sure we do not lose sight of the individuals (our good friends) that make up our guild, be it raid team, zerg team, pvp team or 10man team or stuff around in IF drinking grog team.
Admin
Judicar – feel free to link or copy whatever you’d like.
Zak/El – Well, except my point is that the focus of the guild is not on the team. Because the team is separate from the guild. The guild values and focus should not change, regardless of what the team is doing.
IMO the good of the individual is only more important when it impacts the good of the team (ie: I hate this so much I won’t raid anymore, and then we don’t have enough raiders) — which is another way of saying the good of the team comes first.
Dues Payer
I total agree Frost i have even rolled a Druid so i can heal on occassions as my guild is lacking range and heals the only problem is if i heal i am one of the few range we have and I also top the damage done meters most of the time too.
Member
Colmillos! you need to get ahold of me and tell me more bout this whole thing based out of phoenix AZ- because thats where i live! go go find a way..
Member
As far as guild problems go we are having almost the same problem as the person that sent in- in fact i almost wonder if that is the other hunter from our guild… lol. go go frost get on with your bad self
Just wanted to say, this is a great point to make. I tweeted it too.
Very good post. I can see how this would help those that want to raid but still be in a casual guild. Are there any issues with qq about cliques or favorites?
By coincidence another blog I read posted on similar topic, which your readers might enjoy.
http://nonelitistraiding.blogspot.com/2009/11/how-to-make-raiding-alliance-work.html
Member
My guild is a social/casual guild that raids. We have enough in out raider rank to clear all 25 man content ad often run 2 x 10 man’s three times a week. We have a raiding rotation for when we cant fill all the 25 man spots. i agree totally with what is said in the op there is a great distinction between the guild and raiding team – they are not the same. The rules in place for raiders are the standard rules re gem/pots/buff food.
There was a lot of time spent by officers to establish a fair system for raider rank – this isn’t to say that non raiders cant raid they do, but raiders get priority to new content – when raids are on farm they switch to free for all – therefore any one can set up a raid for that instance which we do on a regular basis to gear up guildies and alts – raiders are not expected to get locked to a raid that is on offical raiding rotation.
It has worked well – and casual guiilds can semi hard core raid and still we are all guildies .
Thank you for the post. A friend linked it to my old guild website. My guild me went through this and forgot that the guild is not the raid group and stomped his way through some of us who worked hard to start it going as far as to say “this wasn’t a guild, it wasn’t a guild until I made it one” I am glad to see someone who understands that there are peeps behind the keys who may not ever be “raiding member status” but can still be fun to hang with in game.
whats wrong with steady shot QQ
Member
Your Guild and Raid Team don’t have to be separate, even for Casuals. My Guild raids ICC 10 twice a week, and we are progressing fine(we’re 10/12 and working on Sindragosa atm). After we down LK we will start running Heroic 10, and we are all pretty much casual-semi casual. Everyone of us is either married or engaged(engaged in my case)and have way too much going on to be Hardcore. Not that there’s anything wrong with being Hardcore, trust me if I could I would.
Yet, we are still able to get together twice a week and progress nicely through ICC. Slower than others maybe, but regardless we have a lot of fun doing it and I wouldn’t want to raid on a regular basis with anyone other than them. I actually think having our Guild and Raid Team be one and the same helps us. We form a bond as a Guild and then bring that bond into our Raids. Again, not saying that if you separate the two that you can’t form bonds.
In the end though, I guess it comes down to w/e works for you and what you like the best/feel comfortable with. For me this way works the best.
Another great post. I am struggling with being the guild master of a casual guild, being almost raid ready myself (gs 4800, have done a couple of weeklies), but having no guild mates who wil be ready anytime soon. I would sure like to experience some of the Northrend raid content before Cataclysm comes out (and ICC becomes about as relevant as the classic raids are now), but hate the idea of leaving my guild to do it. Wishing I could find a raid team like the one you mention.
Member
im curious frost with the way the guild perks are going to be in cata, im afraid that this concept may not be very easy to accomplish. any tips?