Patch 3.2.2 brought us a handful of hunter changes, including the armor pen nerf and the big changeup to big red pet – with the duration going down, but adding a permanent +10% to hunter damage.
I’ve been spending a chunk of my free time testing the armor pen effects on MM vs SV to see which lands on top. So far I’m still without a definitive answer – the two specs are insanely close to each other, and I’m still working on it.
However yesterday I decided to take a day off and revisit BM – something I haven’t spent a lot of time testing since the big BM fall in patch 3.0.8 (though I have spent a lot of time soloing in BM). I have to say it was kinda nice to hang out with such a simple shot cycle again and revisit some of my exotic pets.
BM Patch 3.2.2 Results
First I set off to retest several BM hunter pets, and I was indeed able to confirm that the Wolf has defeated the Devilsaur to claim its place as the top BM hunter dps pet. I kinda think that this means we’ll want to keep an eye out for Blizzard to do some pet modifications in the near future. I can’t imagine that they want one pet to be the clear leader for every spec – it’s especially sad that the BM best pet is not an exotic pet.
On the other hand, we’ve been told that patch 3.3 will translate some portion of all of our stats to our pets. Once our pets are getting more than just attack power from us — haste and crit and armor pen – it’s entirely possible that will change the best pets again!
Otherwise on the dps front BM dps is testing at about 10% behind MM or SV, which is pretty much as expected.
Technically that isn’t so bad as to ban you from raids: a BM hunter in a raid could still do respectable dps, especially if you’re very good at the spec and timing your cooldowns well. Certainly some BM hunters can even out dps their MM or SV guildmates – but that’s a clear case of guildmates who aren’t skilled at their spec. It’s not that BM is competetive, but that the other specs are being played poorly (sorry BM hunters!). And here’s the thing: if the raid is having dps problems – hitting enrage timers and such – then it’s your fault, because you could be doing considerably more.
So the best pet change was interesting, but BM dps still isn’t where it needs to be to make for a truly viable raid spec. After testing I got to keep my BM raid offspec for all of an hour before I had to dump it for SV to go check out heroic faction champs with some guildmates.
All good things, alas.
(15 votes, average: 4.33 out of 5)
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Hey Frost,
Just wanted to ask.. is it true that the Steady Shot glyph has a bug?
Hi Frost,
I think that those 10% inferior DPS you are referring to is only relevant on more or less stationary fights. Consider some movement and BM with their lack of instants (Arcane and perhaps Aimed if you spec for it) will fall even further below MM an SV. Just my opinion…
I was wondering, how you were able to determine that wolf > devilsaur? I’ve been running around with a devilsaur myself for raids/intensive hc’s and retamed a wolf to check it out. I quickly gave up cause wolf was getting nowhere near the dps that I was doing with devie. So out of pure curiosity – how did you check it?
I grabbed an 80 wolf and tried it a bit last night. It was interesting to see – I don’t have firm numbers – sorry. He seemed to be more effective. He is a bit quieter.
I’ll concede my toon has much room for improvement (I’ve done several of the things mentioned here). Smileez on Earthen Ring is my hunter.
There is one improvement that comes from using a wolf over a devilsaur: vision. I had a much clearer view of the target.
Thank you very much for your site!
What spec and glyphs did you test? Particularly, did you have at least 4 points in Mortal Shots, and did you use Glyph of Bestial Wrath (which was effectively nerfed along with the talent)?
Contributor
Ril – the Wolf’s appeal lies in the AP buff he gives to the hunter. So total dps will be more from hunter/pet, while you may still see the Dino doing more in a pet v. pet comparison. The same is true of MM and SV, where cats and raptors can show as high as or higher than the wolf on a recount meter, but don’t contribute to the hunter’s dps.
Deepfried – But on moving fights, you have a steady DOT in the form of your pet, who can pull as much as 50% of your total dps (though usually closer to 40). You may be onto something, but I think the difference between moving and stationary will be fairly negligible. MM does have some great instants, so I’d tend to agree with you there, but only slightly.
…
Along similar lines, I’m curious if the Devil did indeed do more on his own than the wolf, discounting the AP buff for the hunter. I would imagine yes, but that’s only speculation.
Dues Payer
As Ozzy Ozborne would say Bark at the Moon , i love the wolf for raiding hes fast , gives a raid buff when his howl procs and does not stomp everywhere he goes. He is quiet and smaller making it easier to see the fights and whats going on long live the wolf. Just getting back to BM now on my alt hunter but thats getting set up for tanking so the croc is on the top of my list to level up.
I have a question I’m sure has been answered but I have yet to see it.
Does Furious Howl stack with Call of the Wild? If I have a wolf should I not take Call and put the points elsewhere?
Love, I mean love this site. I have learned so much reading through the guides and posts, I really appreciate it.
Dues Payer
Frost was nice enough to already post this
http://www.warcrafthuntersunion.com/2009/05/list-of-what-raid-buffs-stack-and-do-not-stack/
its big tho but nice to know
Member
So is wolf better for leveling than devilsaur or no?
Arthemystia – I know the mechanics. But I’m using Skada, which shows overall dps meaning me + pet. Wolf + me has never beaten Dino + me, hence I’m curious. Consider me hesitant – I must check it myself and you can be sure I will
To Fradin: Furios Howl does not apply to the whole Raid anymore, as of 3.1.0 it only applies to the hunter and to the wolf and it do stack with Blessing of Might and Battle shout.
@Arth: I demand you agree with me more just slightly
I know that pet DPS contributes with more than 40% but still, BM has by large margin greater DPS contribution from Steady than MM, not to mention SV. IMHO difference between stationary and moving fights would be more than negligible but whatever. I must admit you have much more experiences with BM and for sure are more skilled in it than I am
“And here’s the thing: if the raid is having dps problems – hitting enrage timers and such – then it’s your fault, because you could be doing considerably more.”
Couldn’t this really be said to anyone not playing a class that has the highest damage potential? If it was determined that SV Hunters put out the highest damage out of all the ranged classes, would it be your fault that you are playing a warlock or mage when you know that SV Hunters out damage you?
Frost,
When we were out camping, you mentioned a raid buff that the BM gives to people that could possibly increase peoples dps by 3% (so you guys were throwing around 12% as a number) thus making BM a viable spec. if they do 10% less damage, and buff the total raid 3% or something, would that be on par?
What buff was that you guys were referring to?
Admin
Argano – of course not. To change specs takes you a few minutes and a trip to the trainer and teh AH. Changing classes takes you months. One of them is an easy and fast way to increase your dps and the other is silly.
Also, you want a mix of classes to get all the different buffs.
Admin
Neven: we were talking about Ferocious Inspiration, a BM pet ability; however, Ret Paladins have the identical buff.
Member
I am curious about how any of the spirit beasts would stack up against the wolf. Did you have an opportunity to test them as one of your “exotics”? I have all three and am kind of bummed that it is basically the same pet in a different skin. Would have loved to see Skoll get the “normal” wolf howl ability on top of his spirit strike.
So wouldnt argano still be somewhat correct since:
1 MM hunter increases AP %
1 SV hunter = Replenishment
1 BM increases damage %
or is SV dps greater then 3% to a 10/25 raids dps when not overwritten
Sorry, Frost, BM is not as easy as you think it is. It is easily competitive with the other hunter specs played very well, assuming the other specs aren’t being played perfectly. You assume that an MM hunter not doing 10k is a noob, when that’s just ignorant. BM excels when there is a lot of target switching, add killing, and DPS gimp duties. The MM hunter in my raid goes from top 5 to 14th on anub because of ice orb duty, this kind of task wouldn’t crush a BM hunter nearly as much.
Enrage timers are only hit by guilds who aren’t ready to down the boss yet. It’s not because one person is doing 1000 fewer DPS, it’s because the raid as a whole isn’t performing well enough. You can’t blame one person for a few seconds of timer loss, especially if they’re giving the raid 3% damage that more than makes up for their loss in DPS. Hunters do awful DPS anyway compared to the other pures and even several hybrids, there is a reason the top guilds don’t use them at all on hard modes.
I think you should do more tests and try to really understand the BM spec you look down on so much. A great BM hunter can match or beat a good MM/SV hunter. There are a lot of intricacies, that most players would overlook, that make BM easily the most difficult spec to play. I see BM hunters doing 8k DPS average throughout a raid night, while their MM friends are only doing 7800. Let me guess, 7800 is terrible DPS and the MM hunter must be a huge retard.
Admin
Well the one place I agree with you is that an extremely well played BM hunter can outperform a poorly played MM or SV hunter.
There are absolutely one or two boss fights atm that favor BM. And there are intricacies to BM beyond just spamming steady shot; however, BM is significantly less dps than an equivalently skilled and geared MM or SV hunter at the moment. And I’m sorry, but BM is just an easier spec (though on a couple of bosses, it can be very hard indeed).
Yes, any dpser will outperform a dpser on orb duty. And I’d argue that BM is a worse spec for orb duty because they have fewer instant shots and are less likely to one or two shot an orb.
And let’s be clear: enrage timers are hit by raids with insufficient dps. Regardless of why their dps is insufficient, the solution is to do more dps.
Goodness what a post, where to begin. I must admit I have re written this half a dozen times, some a very angry, some pure theorycraft others from my own perspective.
“Certainly some BM hunters can even out dps their MM or SV guildmates – but that’s a clear case of guildmates who aren’t skilled at their spec. It’s not that BM is competetive, but that the other specs are being played poorly (sorry BM hunters!). ”
I’m trying to understand if you posted that because you want a great debate or if you wanted to rile some players or if you truly haven’t got a clue.
First of all some background, been playing since Reign of Chaos, was happily running with my hunter since launch of the MMORPG wow and since then been in the realms top 5 everytime I’ve hit capped level. My raid spec of choice is a BM. I raid with my guildmates who happen to be the rest of the top5 on the realm and some days I come out on top others I don’t but I have never been lower then roughly 800 dps (my gear score is 2875 at time of post.) Would you like me to give you their email address so you can happily tell them they are playing poorly? because trust me when I say they would love it.
How long did you try BM for? When you change specs, did you gem and glyph properly or did you just leave your SV gemmed/glyphed self and thought you could smash out a few recount rounds and compare? Did you proc your wolf and devilsaur at the same time? Where you even geared towards a BM instead of SV? To be fair to us BM out there why don’t you post your charts on this extensive test that left you believing my spec is a non raid spec and even though you didn’t come right out and say it I left me feeling you felt that anyone who does raid as a BM is either a massive tool for letting their raid down or a idiot.
Yes I agree if you get a nub BM and a nub SV the SV is going to come out top dps because let’s face it SV spec is the vanity spec for those who think if they’re top of the recount they have done their job. Raiding is so much more then just see boss, shoot boss.
For the love of all that is right, if you’re going to dis my spec as well as – well at least on my realm – 1,364 other lvl80 BM hunters. Please either dedicate more time to know the spec before writing it off or admit you just don’t want to because you feel safer as a SV.
Regards,
Admin
I have no emotional attachment to any spec. The whole idea here is to make a rational decision based on data — in the form of theorycrafting and in-game testing. Not an emotional decision. I did in fact play BM throughout BC and at the beginning of Wrath — in other words, when it was the best spec. I will raid with whatever spec is best. Now I mostly play MM, but switch to SV for some bosses that favor SV strongly.
Currently by every test – from theorycraft to target dummies to in-game raid testing – BM falls behind SV and MM. And yes, of course I test with appropriate glyphs and gems (the reason I’m always so broke, because I do a *lot* of testing). In almost every boss fight, the only way that BM outperforms if if their gear or skill is higher than the SV/MM (and, in general, gear and skill always wins out). With equal skill, MM/SV is just a higher damage spec.
If you have data that contradicts this, I encourage you to post that data. We love the scientific process here, which includes constantly challenging conclusions with new data! However, before you post, remember: “The plural of anecdote is not data.”
Dues Payer
i never really cared for BM, but i had the golden opportunity to tame krush in sholazar, and still wolves are better >:O
oh well, i guess i can show off my red green christmas stompy thing in yogg then
“For the love of all that is right, if you’re going to dis my spec as well as – well at least on my realm – 1,364 other lvl80 BM hunters. Please either dedicate more time to know the spec before writing it off or admit you just don’t want to because you feel safer as a SV.”
Bring numbers. Anecdotally I only have information to the contrary. The buffs bm brings are easily replaced and at the moment I personally see no reason to respec. Even though I miss my Dino (and several raid members request to see “Gaylord” the giant pink Devilsaur come stomping back).