An interesting Blizzard quote caught my eye the other day and got me to thinking about the BM spec some more:
BM is actually more popular than MM among level 80s. BM is also the most popular secondary spec, though maybe it could just be to play Pokemon with Spirit Beasts.
Now what they don’t tell us is if BM is a more popular main spec than MM, or if they’re only looking at level 80 hunters (since obviously all those alts are BM to level). However, they make it clear that BM is the most popular offspec – to which my inital reaction was, well of course it is!
But the more I thought about it, the more valid this response seemed. There is always the appearance of an effort to bring all spec up to a relatively raid-balanced state; however, I doubt that any pure dps class has ever had 3 viable (with 5% of each other) raid specs.
But I think dual-speccing has changed the conversation.
Now it seems more valid than ever to say “this spec won’t compete in raid dps, but it’ll be awesome for soloing, or good for pvp – and that’s okay.” After all, you have the option to get a second spec (and don’t complain to me about the cost – that’s still a fraction of what I spend on respecs — I want 5-speccing damnit!) And having a spec that’s basically just a solo spec is not a bad thing by any stretch. After all, not everyone raids and not everyone pvps. But just about everyone has to solo from time to time, whether for dailies or money or achievements. It makes sense that it’s the most popular offspec – everyone needs it. And the pure fact that so many people have a BM spec is a really good proof that the spec doesn’t need improving.
Now I’m going to pause here a moment and acknowledge that a lot of hunters just like BM. Not just like, but love it! They love their big red pet and their rare pets and they just want to be able to play the spec they love and still compete for top dps in raids.
Here’s the thing though: when you put on your Frostheim Goggles and look at the world devoid of emotion or feelings, this whole “but I love BM” argument is no different than someone saying they want to play a hunter that only melees and still top the meters. With all the different aspects of the game, it’s not really reasonable to expect 3 viable dps specs, and the fact that you have an irrational emotional attachment to what is now an inferior spec is not a reasonable argument for why that spec should be on top. In point of fact, there’s lots of arguments for why BM should be on the bottom (what with it being so amazingly good for other solo-related things).
But maybe that’s just easy for me to say because I have no emotional attachment to one spec. Or maybe it’s easy to say because I’m an emotionless a-hole (which is what my roomate tells me, often, though I suspect that’s just an emotional response to a rational thought process).
I started off playing MM throughout all vanilla, and loved it. I switched to BM in patch 2.0 and I found that I loved BM (who wouldn’t love having the best dps, best solo, and a great pvp spec all in one?). When Patch 3.0.8 forced the switch to Survival, I found a lot to love in explosive shot and crazy agility and crits. Then when the dps swung back to MM I came full circle and love playing my MM hunter again.
As long as we hunters have an option that lets us top the damage meters, I’ll change my playstyle to adapt to that spec and be happy with it.
After all, it’s still worlds better than playing any other class.
I ( like a lot of hunters ) leveled as BM spec. In fact, I mostly used BM at lvl 80 in dungeons until I had gotten rid of my last green gear. I still like to play BM better for solo, and when taking lowbies or new 80s through instances (including level 80 instances)….but when running heroics or raids with my guild mates I use MM for better dps.
I love my bestial wrath, and the way my pet can tank a bunch of mobs. I tried Survival for a very short (maybe a week) time, just didn’t like it and went back to MM..I have never dropped BM.
I would be “nice” if BM could do a bit more DPS and be competitive in raids…but IMO not really necessary. I still have “Scutters” my pig from level 10 or 11 and will never give him up……not because he’s the best at anything but I just love him……I guess I’m just a sentimental dwarf
It’s an interesting point about sentimental attachment to a spec. My husband’s original main way back when was a frost mage. He loved that character and raided a lot with it in BC, but in Wrath it barely managed to get levelled up to 80. As far as I understand frost mage spec is THE PvPspec, but pretty useless in raids. And since my husband isn’t interested in PvP at all, but does like raiding – so he is playing other classes instead. It’s funny since he isn’t normally what you would call a sentimental person, but the mage was frost from his first talent point and he just cannot imagine playing it as anything else. He did try other specs, but “they just didn’t feel right”.
I can see that out of 3 DPS trees one will most likely always be better than the others and end up being the flavour of the month. But surely it should be possible to play the others and at least be able to contribute well enough to pull your weight in a group, even if you may not top the meters with it? Because it does seem a shame that if you love your icy mage or your BM hunter you cannot play them in groups.
I know in the grand scheme of things it’s only a drop in the bucket, but BM is the overwhelming popular spec for farm bots. I used to not really even believe they existed, yet I’ve run into LOTS recently. Maybe they’re just finally getting around to my sever. I’ve also noticed them explode due to phasing. It’s all to easy for a bot to hide in phased territory and farm up spiders while everyone else is questing and passing them by.
While not a majority situation, there are plenty of Hunters who like to RP their character in some capacity, whether it’s outward full RP or inward imaginings of their Hunter. So in that area an attachment to a spec isn’t an irrational emotional attachment, but rather a perception of character.
The example Tufva provided above illustrates this case.
Raiding shouldn’t only be for the min-maxers, especially since Wrath has made great strides to opening up raiding to many more players. Though that said, I know there are BM Hunters out there putting out some very high DPS so it may be ultimately a case of knowing your spec better in order to raid, which would make sense.
Personally, I leveled my Hunter as BM and was loathe to switch as I had the Loq’nehak Spirit Beast and after taking him through the Zul’Drak quests with my Troll Hunter, the pairing seemed too perfect. But I did switch, tried both Marksman and Survival, and fell in love with Marksmanship. Survival has never felt right, so after a trial run of a month of SV, I went back to MM and have stayed put.
The big thing the switch taught me was that I sucked at playing BM. It was not the right spec for me at all and leaving it behind really opened up the Hunter class for me.
I guess the point of this anecdote is that switching sometimes is not a bad thing at all and can be a boon for your perceptions of your character and class.
I absolutely love playing the BM spec as I have a passion for rare taming. It’s akin to mounting on your Time Lost Proto Drake or Raven Lord when showing off your stable. (Mine includes Loque, Gondria, Aotona, and Skoll) I really do not care if it’s the top raid spec as I run (and love) MM in raids anyway. When I am rep grinding old world stuff or doing world events like Brewfest and DPS is not a factor I pop my spec to BM and get to have some fun with the stable. I would actually like to see Bliz modify BM even more to a PvP spec which would encourage the BG addicts and arena players to play in BM. Keep SV and MM as raid options and BM for solo and PvP stuff.
If I had one criticism it’s my stable space…I WANT MORE!!! With four rares tamed and only one pet slot open for “normal” beasties I have little option to tame (and try) some other pets in raid. Call me sentimental but I just can’t click “abandon” on my cat that I brought up from level 12 somewhere outside of Darnassus. I expect the cold-calculating DPS theory crafting gods would insist I toss him out into the wild for some other pet but I am too soft I suppose. In fact, I do not really even know what the best “raid” pet is although I see a lot of wolves (maybe for the “howl”) out there. I’d love a suggestion or two in the event Bliz knocks a wall down in my kennel and lets me put in an addition.
When Blizzard looks into popularity, I doubt they drill down into looking at the numbers for specific sub-segments. For example, people who have cleared Ulduar.
My off spec (though it is spec #1 in my dual spec) will always be BM. I’ve got two exotics that I love pulling out from time to time (PvP+Silithid+Big Red=win!). I doubt I will ever leave BM by any stretch. I am one of those hunters who, like mentioned above, likes to RP to at least some extent. She has strong opinions on the blood elves and undead, feels that the tauren are a noble race that is being drug down by the horde which has become tainted by the belfs, etc… She prefers dual wielding, even though “hunters use polearms/staves” and she does quite well.
But I have to agree that we DO have two very viable raiding specs, which is, to be honest, plenty.
As much as I would love to raid BM so I could hear those roars of Loqui’s, I can always pull him out when I am doing my dailies. Heroics are a joke at the gear level most of us are at too, so I can go BM then as well, heck it even helps when we have a lower geared tank pugged… talk about a PITA to manage threat against a tank in quest greens and blues! And I can still rock the meters in BM, even though I am agi geared/enchanted/gemmed for SV.
My favorite aspect of this debate is how it is arguably better to bring a BM hunter for Yogg-Saron (especially one/no light) as their pet acts like a heavy DoT (like affliction locks) and their dependence on burst DPS rather than steady DPS allows them to blow cooldowns for high damage when they are facing the boss.
I love that BM isn’t our raid spec. But I love BM. Why the discrepancy? Because it is undoubtedly the easiest spec to play. I want the dues-payers topping damage meters, not the mythic “huntards.” If the best soloing spec, tanking spec, lvling spec, and still decent PvP spec is broken, I don’t know what *isn’t* broken.
@Bell That’s an excellent point- there are encounters that favor all of our specs. There are less that favor BM overall, but they do exist. And the big one, yogg +0, is a fairly prestigious fight!
Personally I don’t think BM is broken. It’s one of the best leveling specs, class wide. That’s what it’s there for and we’re given two other options if we want high end DPS.
Spoilt for choice
@ Arthemystia
I don’t find it to be so. But that is perhaps just me being biased. /shrug
BM is my “raid spec” and MM is my “off spec”, for pet unfriendly fights. MM is easy for me. I smash my buttons when they are off cooldown and I get crazily high numbers. It feels effortless.
BM is hard for me because I am apparently one of the few people out there that can pull out good numbers with it, and knowing when to use your cooldowns, where to stick (and not stick) your pet, and time all of this crap, and still come out on a decent place on Recount, is ridiculously difficult.
If that makes me a huntard topping the damage meters, so be it. /shrug
(I also want to stress though, that I don’t think easy should equate to DPS. I never used the Steady Shot macro in BC. And I thought BM at the beginning of WotLK was silly and boring. It’s in a good spot now, it just needs… more damage.)
I like the hunter/pet synthesis of BM. If I wanted supercrazy rotations I’d roll a feral druid or something. I don’t see why because I feel like I am enjoying something, I should be forced into a lower position on Recount, to be quite frank.
/shrug
/leaves now that she is done playing Devil’s Advocate
Pike – Just a misunderstanding. Never would I call such nuanced dedication being a huntard, nor did I in the earlier post. And kudos for your persistence. You should play what you enjoy.
But the fact remains that BM is the easiest spec to get respectable dps out of, because someone who knows nothing can send in their pet, cast whatever they want in any order, and come out ok because pets do almost 50% of the damage in BM. It’s a big reason why the term huntard was coined, in fact.
I love that BM is great for a lot of purposes, but also like that it’s the lowest dps spec. If it were again the highest raid spec, it would push the other two back into obscurity because MM and SV don’t have the myriad secondary purposes that BM has. Don’t get me wrong, I’ll love whatever spec gets me great dps, BM included, but it’s not a bad setup right now for hunters.
Yay, it’s Pike!!
Just like BM has to time cooldowns carefully, so too does MM (with readiness and rapid). What’s easy and hard is different from person to person, but it’s hard to play MM *well* just as it’s hard to play BM *well*. I would argue that it’s much easier to play BM well than MM or SV – though you bring up a good point, that BM isn’t really that far behind MM and SV. Maybe 7% or so on many fights.
But I do believe that when one spec is easier to play, more mana efficient, better for soloing, etc, it just makes sense that it shouldn’t also be at the same dps level.
What I would really like to see out of the BM spec is less DPS. Take out everything in the ability tree that increases DPS and replace them with things that make ferocity pets viable raid tanks. A “move to there” command, defensive cooldowns, more threat generation, etc.
We already have two viable specs in the DPS role, why not add another one in a different role.
I suppose I just see it like the way feral druid works. There is a bear spec and a cat spec. Similarly, in BM, there is a DPS spec and a solo’ing spec. Sure, a cat spec would do pretty good in bear and a bear spec would do pretty good in cat. Same deal with a BM raid spec does pretty good solo’ing and the other way around (though to a much lesser extent). But that doesn’t mean a Cat druid should be left out in the cold just because they can also tank.
I would also make a case about any BM hunter doing decent DPS; the number of BM hunters I have run into who can’t even outDPS a mediocre tank is a very large number. Because these hunters aren’t spec’ing their pet correctly, aren’t using the right rotation, etc. It is harder than one might think to actually do decent DPS with it.
We shall have to agree to disagree though, since none of us is gonna change our mind… =P
BTW, I apologize if I was implying that you were calling me a huntard, since that was not my intent. You just have to understand, the amount of ridicule and ribbing that I have endured for wanting to play a Beast Master hunter goes a long way back. The “LOLZ WHY DO YOU HAVE A HOW TO PLAY A BM HUNTER BLOG, AUTO SHOT PLUS PET LOLZ” remarks that I have received from “friends” over the months, still sting. It’s difficult to constantly be told that one’s spec (or class) takes little to no skill. That is what I was referring to.
I agree with Pike there is BM Solo and BM raid. I have one of each flavor
I’m one of those sentimental hunters that refuses to respec and my guild is tight knit enough that no one would ever think to as me to change. When the first nerfs hit I was survival until the pet talent changes and I hated it. It wasn’t the cool downs, it wasn’t the waiting for procs… it was looking at my pet lying there dead on the ground and knowing there was no point in res’ing it.
Also, guys you are ok with just using your spirit beats for dailies? Holy crap that’d break my heart. I have dreams of moonfire kitty in my raids.
After writing and deleting several thoughts, I’m just going to stick with my basic opinion: Gamers should be able to play the spec they enjoy most and, if they research and gear correctly, be able to put out similar DPS to the other trees. Makes the most sense from an emotionless standpoint, too, since Blizzard wants gamers playing the class – and spec – they enjoy most.
Either that, or make BM (more) tank-viable. Lord knows my server could use a few more tanks.
By the way, from the 3.2.2 patch notes today:
The Beast Within: The duration of this talent has been reduced to 10 seconds. In addition, hunters with this talent will do 10% additional damage at all times.
I don’t know if that means hunter damage, or hunter and pet damage. If it’s just hunter damage and it includes all shots, that’s roughly a 5% dps boost. If it includes the pet, that’s the full 10%.
It seems like that puts a well-played BM hunter right in line with a well-played SV or MM.
Proposal:
Let any hunter use/tame any pet (get rid of the “exotic” classification), and let the 51 point BM talent be the 4 (maybe buff it to 6?) pet talent points.
I’ve seen a few people say Hunters shouldn’t have 3 viable raid specs, and I have to ask why? Paladins do, Shamans do. Warriors, DKs (don’t get me started here), Priests, Druids. Plus, many of them can tank and/or heal. I don’t think it’s a stretch for us to be able to have 3 dps specs, so we can choose the one we like best (or out of two for situational fights). Add another shot to BM if the rotation’s too easy for raiding. Add another ability that has to be properly timed. Just give people that love the spec a fighting chance at #1 on the damage. Not really unfair, I think.
From Pike: “I suppose I just see it like the way feral druid works. There is a bear spec and a cat spec. Similarly, in BM, there is a DPS spec and a solo’ing spec. Sure, a cat spec would do pretty good in bear and a bear spec would do pretty good in cat. Same deal with a BM raid spec does pretty good solo’ing and the other way around (though to a much lesser extent). But that doesn’t mean a Cat druid should be left out in the cold just because they can also tank.”
I agree with this statement from Pike. The thing about the BM tree is that it’s like speccing in the Feral tree for Druids. I know some people have said that you have great solo capabilities and potentially great pvp abilites and potentially good pve abilities in the BM tree, but the problem is that you can’t have all 3 at once, because you only have a limited amount of Talent points, and you have to make sacrifices and tradeoffs to make your BM Hunter good at something, and these sacrifices force you to be not quite so good (and even bad) at the other things you potentially could be in the BM tree.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable for Hunters to have 3 viable raid specs, as long as they’re pretty close to each other in power. Now if BM were to be tweaked so that it’d have a competitive Raid spec, then I wouldn’t that spec to solo or PVP better than MM or SV specs (that would be overpowered), BUT I can also say that it probably wouldn’t take Blizzard all that much work to make BM a competitive raid spec. At least… more competitive than it is right now.
I don’t care if BM remains the lowest DPS raid spec as long as it’s competitive (not markedly inferior the way it is now) to SV and MM hunters. And I agree with Nakaya_Kilrogg. I heard that Ghostcrawler said that BM had lower DPS because it was “too easy to play”. Well let’s just sit back a minute and think about whose fault it is that BM is too easy to play. Is it us the Players, who didn’t design or tweak or make BM too easy to play… or is it Blizzard, the developers who made BM too easy?
Well obviously it’s Blizzard, who in fact CAN easily change the way BM works and add another shot or ability that has to be timed carefully, or change an existing ability or two to add extra complexity.
And to Nakaya’s list of classes with 3 viable raid specs, I have to add ROGUES, who have -3- viable PVE DPS specs, and who like Hunters, are also a pure DPS class.
Seriously, well played BM PVE DPS is so close to being competitive right now, that a few more tweaks from Blizzard and it could easily be made competitive. Like I said, I don’t want BM to have the best of all worlds, I just think it’s irrational to think that it shouldn’t have a viable PVE Raid spec just because it can be good at some things MM and SV can’t be as good at. MM and SV Hunters can also be good at things BM can’t be good at, and they still have viable raid builds, so I don’t see why BM can’t be more viable.
Jehos: We discussed this buff over a week ago here: http://www.warcrafthuntersunion.com/2009/09/bm-buff-in-patch-3-2/
It affects the hunter only, and translates into a 2-3% dps boost. Right now BM hunters — if really well played — ends up within about 10% of a MM or SV hunter. In other words: if your raid is hitting enrage timers and you’re BM, then it’s partially your fault.
Kylandis: My arguement for why BM shouldn’t be equal raid dps as MM or SV is that BM has the simplest rotation, the easiest to play, is the best in solo (even with a raid build, you are amazing at soloing), most mana efficient, and excellent at pvp. The only thing MM and SV hunters are better at than BM is raid dps and complexity.
I suspect that if Blizz adjusted BM so that it wasn’t much easier to play, phenomenal at soloing with raid spec, and all the other advantages – you would hate your new BM spec, because it would be nothing like it is right now. However if that change happened so BM was more or less equal to the other specs in all other regards, I’d be fine with it being equal in dps too.
As long as BM is better than the other specs is almost every regard, it’s hard to justify making it just as good in that one last (very important) regard too – especially since dual spec lets you keep BM for warm fuzzies while you play MM for dealing death.
Priests and warrior can easily have 3 viable raid specs – but no pure dps class has 3 viable *dps* specs.
I think Blizzard has the spec down well they made it close enough that you can raid with it but on the other hand you can solo , tank and do other things were as the raid specs MM and SV are only good for raiding really and thats why they are the top DPS specs.
It’s time to update the Beast Mastery glyph guide. Glyph of Bestial Wrath loses a lot of effectiveness with this patch, and may not even be in the top three DPS glyphs for BM hunters (depending on gear, buffs, and fight mechanics, natch).
If you thought the BM shot rotation was boring before, wait ’til you replace Glyph of Bestial Wrath…
Good point about the glyphs. i have a question, I have been gemming all my gear for attack power as it transfers pretty well to my pet and thus my DPS. Most hunters I see are all gemming for agility or armor pen. Is attack power still the way to gem for max BM DPS? I know SV benefits more from agility but what about MM? Gem questions… thanks