Blizzard has put all kinds of interesting little toys into the game. As time passes, they get more elaborate and involved, from halloween masks to fireworks to dueling pets. While I don’t collect toys myself (my bag slots are for useful things) I can acknowledge that they’re neat. After all, it’s hard to diss the little things that you play with… in the game that you’re playing.
However, they have no place in a raid. None of them. At all.
When I see someone playing with their little mini toy in a raid (usually while standing around buffing) I want to strangle them. Moreso, I want to kick them from the raid.
The biggest problem with the toys is it causes people to lose their focus – and focus is a very tangible and important thing on progression raids. And those toys are contagious. First one person is playing fetch with his pet, then another is, and suddenly there’s a stream of custom emotes and jokes flying. Next thing you know a train set is out. No one is thinking about the last few wipes or what they need to do differently. And you know what? The next attempt just about always ends up being super ugly.
Toys in raids bug me enough that I pay pretty close attention to the fooling around the effect on the subsequent boss attempt. When the raid decends into a cluster of toys and emotes, they’ve lost it and the next attept is a wipe.
Now our old guild actually had a sporatically enforced rule that toys were not allowed in raids. This rule started back in vanilla days in Molten Core when we had wipes because of people playing with Halloween costumes — they’d turn someone into a wisp without the target knowing it, and the costume made you unbable to use your abilities. In the time it took the victims to discover this, the raid wiped. And wipes were a heck of a lot more painful in those days.
And toys wiping the raid isn’t limited to the old days – it’s happened even in Wrath. Hilarious story in hindsight, but a pain in the ass while you’re raiding and lose the time to a pointless wipe:
We were doing Thaddius 25 man. We had split into two groups, one on each ramp, and some final discussion was happening. Someone was using their little “go fetch” vanity pet. The tank on the other end mistook the little vanity pet for the (gnome) tank of the first group running up the ramp - so the other tank ran up the ramp and engaged. Wipe followed.
Normal vanity pets are okay, but just about anything else has no place during a raid, including:
- Costumes, even on yourself. I especially hate this on tanks, when I’m trying to pay attention to their positioning, because my position is based on theirs and it’s easy to lose someone when they suddenly are a pirate.
- Anything that shoots, makes noise, or moves around.
- Anything that clutters up raid chat with pointless emotes. Especially flipping that damned coin.
- Anything that forces other characters to emote, including the flute and the damned train (which can also interrupt eating expensive buff food).
- Hell, I’d include the strange impulse that some people have to take off their gear and dance during wipe recovery. I know we’re just sitting around – but frankly you’re making the downtime take longer by doing this – especially as you derail other people into doing stupid stuff.
Just to be clear, I think chatting and joking around are totally appropriate during raids (well, during downtimes), and I think you all know this from the delightful screenshots I’ve posted of our raids. But there’s something about playing with toys that seems to cross a line and works to send a raid into a nosedive.
So put your toys away or I’ll take them away.
you grinch, lol just kidding, Well when our guild raids its usually pretty ugly anyway
even without toys. But, there are many of instances were we are standing around
either waiting on other players to join the raid or someone is afk, or someone has to let their dog out, or the baby needs a diaper change, etc…..so instead of standing around
lookin pimp I break out the toys, (remote tanks, pets, coins, whatever). And i continue to play with them until there is a ready check. Now if my toys ever caused a wipe then yes
I would not have them out but ill be damned if im gonna stand around for more then 15 minutes without playing with my toys. BTW… My New Hero story is awesome.
Train Breaker. The winningest win Blizzard ever created!
I MD’d one of the bombs surrounding Mimiron’s shell to a guild member once while we were looting him. A torrent of curses and laughs entered vent chat while I laughed uncontrollably. It was just too good an opportunity to pass up.
Otherwise I just do it when there’s no risk of a wipe. Badge runs through Nax are a perfect time for shenanigans these days, for example.
Good post but….
Toys are just as easily there to break up the monotonous tone of crazy wipe-fests as people learn a fight. Who’s to say that a wipe was gonna happen simply because toys were brought out? Correlation/causation much? Sounds too much like a self-fufilling prophecy when you say there’s a wipe after a toyfest (or whatever you want to call it.)
Don’t get me wrong, I see where you’re coming from when it comes to distractions in a raid. Toys can be distracting. A raid can also be enjoyable as hell or a total stress bomb for people. Toys could be for stress relief in those instances and what may annoy you can put others at ease. Take away the stress reliever and things can just as easily get worse.
How about throwing in a break where things get batshit toy crazy? A “hey guys, break out all those crazy gadgets for a minute” moment might be just the thing for a break if needed. I enjoy breaking out my Time-Lost Figurine just the same as some of my fellow raiders might bring something I’ve never seen. I like seeing the new and different things people find and it makes for good vibes all around. It can break up stressful times and get people back into a better frame of mind to take down that annoying boss. Just be sure they put them away just as quick as they got them out. /obvious
/my $.02
I’m all in favor of limits on toys, but I wouldn’t ban them. They’re a welcome way to ease the stress headaches progression can cause- getting people laughing again really changes the vibe of the group after a string of wipes, and kind of “resets” players who are starting every fight planning on where they want to stand the next time they die.
Of course, if a toy is disruptive (I know of several that will interrupt people while eating expensive stat food), I’d draw the line there, but there’s no harm putting out a little spectral tiger or something that will get people talking and laughing.
As the raid leader for my guild (I have a priest and warrior at 80, priest dinged a matter of an hour after the realm first on my server), I’m strongly in favor of this. My guild is not particularly full of progression raiders; we raid when we can, as most of us are RL friends with extremely conflicting schedules. I believe, however, you said it best when you said…
“The biggest problem with the toys is it causes people to lose their focus – and focus is a very tangible and important thing.”
Not even for progression raids. For raids in general.
Here here. I wish that the ‘ignore’ function caused the ignored target to phase out from your area, like spots in northrend when you’ve quested an area and a guildie hasn’t. I would ignore every person that ever put a train down ever. lol.
I think I’m perhaps less tolerant of toys because I’ve seen several wipes *specifically and only* because of the toy. Take the Thaddius example — who would have predicted that? It’s like the unloaded gun being the most dangerous kind, because you think it’s safe.
Sure, maybe you feel like you need to relieve stress by distracting people, cluttering the chat window with emotes and whatnot. And as long as the entire rest of your raid is fine with it, go for it. Just make sure the RL is on board.
I feel like it has its times when it is ok and when it is not. For example, if we’re on break and somebody is turned into a wisp spirit or something along those lines (something that stops all abilities), the player should be able to notice “Hey, I’m a wisp! I should click out of this thing so I can go kill some undead stuff!” It is kind of noticeable.
However, not at all times during a raid, just sometimes during downtime.
I think this is just Frost’s way of warning whoever the new WHU raid pickup is, so that he doesn’t die a horribly face-ripping death at the hands of Hrist.
toys helps ease the stress of a first time maly run last night… good pug but was a fairly stressful run
Theres times for toys and times when they just arent acceptable.
If your on a progression night with lots of wipes, toys are out, and the kid gloves should be off. If your farming naxx for the 100th time and your rolling through the place, they can break up the monotony a bit. But at the first sign of trouble they need to be put up.
On a specific note about the tank, Frost, I actually have a dwarf tank in my guild who carries noggenfogger elixirs to turn himself into a skeleton. He says this is because Dwarf tanks have an odd hit box, and the increase in stature corrects it. The same could also be possible for a Pirate. Most likely your instance was just people goofing off, but if this claim is true then I would consider it a valid point in some cases (and I wouldnt doubt the claim. I think most of us are familiar with Gluth and Baby Spice.).
Toys are a great way to kill time while waiting for the raid to get put together or dropped members to be replaced. Once the buffs come out the toys go away. I’d also like to say I’m officially against noncombat pets in a raid (although I collect and chase them insufferably). I have enough blinking lights, moving adds, explosions from the ground, snow from the sky and glowing bombs to watch out for in a fight. I don’t need your flashing skull or your shard vendor adding to distraction and lowering my already suboptimal fps. And saying the toy crusher is the greatest invention is like saying the bulletproof vest is the greatest invention ever. I still want to smack around the genius at Blizzard who decided it would be a good idea in the first place.
I like to put levitate on the entire raid while I’m standing around waiting.
Tee hee.
One of the few places where I disagree a bit with Frosty: normal vanity pets can be useful, particularly if you have a stealthed rogue off sapping things. Sometimes it’s easier to watch the pet than the rogue. Granted, you should be watching for the rogue’s raid update, but having good situational awareness means you’re ready and focused and aware his “done” or “pull” message hits the raid.
Same awareness should expand to the onrushing tank and the ball-tosser in the Thaddius Incident. Did the “go” message get broadcast just before the pet ball got tossed?
Focus is important, and where we should all absolutely agree (and it seems most posters here do). Once you start explaining or prepping for a boss, toys go away. Common courtesy also dictates that if you’ve folks in your raid who are having framerate issues, minipets should also go away before battle. If you’re frustrated and waiting for the umpteenth time as somebody wastes your tiem with their s stealthAFK, sometimes the toys can help you remember that you’re here to have fun. And for me, sometimes that’s bringing out a random non-interacting minipet (no skunks, humpbunnies or battlebots please… and evidently zerglings and murloc marines are now off the list, too).
Dunno if we disagree — I did say that normal vanity pets are okay, no problem there.
I also argue that prepping for a boss includes wipe recovery, which is the most common time to see the toy come out — then someone else brings there’s out, and suddenly you’ve got 5 or 6 people dicking around and your raid chat is scrolling by non-stop, burying anything important being said.
i think this may depend on the group youre with, ive raided with both extremes. no toys, jokes, wow is srsbsnsss raids, and then the loose no focus anything goes raids. the first was stifling and the second was nigh pointless. progression nights are definitely different than raids clearing the same ol mess. players dont have the stamina and patience for wiping like you old timers did, so i find that if things show little sign of progress, then it gets so tense that the raid usually implodes. i can handle wiping, its raiders bickering that turns me off.
i personally dont mind them. if weve pulled, and were in the clear before a boss and were doing that “buff up, ready check, pull, 5 seconds, inc” stage, then yeah, toys are dumb. if someone dc’s or were taking a breather or were waiting on something, then it dont bother me. toys never distracted me from the goal anyway, but i understand not everyone is like that, as your example demonstrates. ill do eyes of the beast if we have some down time on normal raids, i usually dont carry toys with me. oh, except baby spice, but thats practical (i shrink boneheads that try to stand on my fishing bobber). we one time had soemone baby spice steelbreak right as the tank was pulling, that was funny, but careless, and caused a wipe.
one toy i despise is the train set. i carry the wrecker with me at all times just to blow that shizz up. gah i hate that thing.
during heroic emblem farming id say our guild tank is baby spiced 50% of the time. lol
Train smasher is best toy out there
Is it a negative statement about me that I always feel I need to play devil’s advocate to your posts Frost?
Anyway …
To offer an alternative view … If you’re raid members are playing with toys – it’s the raid leaders fault.
People in raids play with toys because they are not engaged with what is going on. This could be for a number of reasons, some which I’ve seen;
* Waiting to be told what to do. (The discussions about what is going on is in back channels)
* They’re “bored”, the raid is moving too slowly
* Waiting for a DC to re-connect
* Intentionally “mentally” disconnecting to from the raid because they are not enjoying it, but don’t think they can leave.
* They’re falling asleep.
Toys are a symptom, not a cause. if you ban toys you’ll just end up with people playing Peggle in raids instead. Deal with the causes, and the toys cease to be an issue.
I half agree with you Myr — that the toys can be a symptom. But they are also a problem.
Bored raiders are one problem (often caused by slow raid). Bored raiders playing with toys spawn other raiders playing with toys. The toys becomes contagious. After a little while, you have a mad dwarf hunting guildmates through the darkened streets with a sword.
Is it a [Foam Sword] ?
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45179
muahahahahaha
I just hate those annoying trains if i get a toy it will be a train wrecker lol,yeah most of our guild has pets but i dont really see to many toys which is good i’m guessing. If your there its to raid not to be fooling around and teaching people bad habits you want people focussed on the job at hand not watching someones toy, especially when your trying to gear people up .
The day pets get banned from raiding is the day I won’t raid anymore ….
Amen, it pisses me off when people put random crap down that serves no purpose but to annoy.
Our 25 man raid has disbanded due to lack of sign ups and so the serious raiders who know there jobs and play well week on week have decided to make 2x 10 man teams to tackle the hardmode content while we figure out whats going to happen.
We were doing Iron Council medium mode. We’ve just wiped on our first try, turns out medium is easy and me and the other Hunter just need to sort out our trap chaining. Trying to discuss it on vent and some prat puts down a train. EVERYONE is screaming CHOO-CHOO over and over. We had to walk away just so we could talk properly. Theres no need to fuck around like that in a raid setting when we’re trying to make some progress.
Damned annoying but we did kill it second try. =)
I’ve seen both sides of this kind of distraction.
My guild does a “training wheels” raid once a week where we raid Progression – 1. During Ulduar this was Naxx25, now we typically split into Uld10 and Naxx10 since we really have two tiers of non-progression raiders.
On one Naxx25 run, one of our guild leaders was along for the run and he was bored. He was constantly playing with toys, jumping off things, linking to 4Chan in raid chat, etc. That night was horrible–there was no focus and every wipe was frustrating.
On the flip side, we did a late-night Naxx10 farming run a couple weeks ago and wiped several times due to lack of focus. However, *everybody* was goofing off and we were all really over-geared for Naxx10, so it be came the “this time without the oops” raid. Everybody had a good time because there was no expectation that we should be learning anything from the run.
I guess I’d fall on the side that toys and goofing off can be fun in raids, but they don’t have a place in progression where everyone should be giving 100%. You can’t give 100% while you’re playing with toys.
I play on an RP server. Toys are stupidly common, especially things like the train, which non-RPers like to use to grief the RPers. For people who play with their game sound on, that train is especially annoying -especially- when in a large clump of people(such as before WIntergrasp or during a raid), yet people seem to insist on dropping them.
As such I have a trainwrecker. Interestingly enough I’ve more than made back the money for the trainwrecker in tips… Even so, that doesn’t make the stupid thing any better.
I remember we were in a bad Naxx10 group. We were just having a horrible off night and one of our PuGs decided to drop one after a wipe, apparently to lighten the mood a bit, or something. Whatever. Damn thing nearly blew out my speakers, and we had to wait 15 minutes for our MH to get back because the train spazzed their sound card and crashed their motherboard and video card in a domino effect. We’re a casual raiding guild… Goofing around is encouraged, at times, but these ‘toys’ just seem to screw things up more than anything else. Bugs me.
I have a bad habit of placing my ultra-rare D.I.S.C.O. ball whenever I’m waiting for a raid to get going… I’ll consider this in the future, and ask the raid if it’s acceptable in the downtime :]