I used to work for a major table top game publisher, and while I was there I had the privilege of working with some very talented game designers (one of them was actually my roommate for a time). It was always interesting listening them talk about game design and theory – they took it all very seriously, even the concept of “fun” was defined by game platform. In the years I was there I eventually soaked up a little bit of knowledge about how games work.
I think the most significant thing I learned was about the concepts of balance vs. broken, and how the majority of people use the concepts incorrectly. When most people refer to a mechanic as being broken, they really mean it’s unbalanced (usually not in their favor).
But the interesting thing about balance is that not all abilities can be balanced. And that’s what broken is.
Here’s a hypothetical example: let’s say WoW has a class called Knights that swing their sword once a second and do 1,000 damage each swing. So they do 1,000 dps. Then you have another class, let’s call it a Soldier, who swings once every 2 seconds and does 2,ooo damage per swing. Thus he also does 1,000 damage per second. This is a common and simple example of balancing. We want abilities that are different, but equal.
But, you can’t just continue the equation. Let’s say we make a Barbarian class that only swings once every 30 seconds, for 30,000 damage. Still only 1,000 dps, but he will one-shot just about any other play out there. You simply cannot put in any balance for an ability that is a guaranteed one-shot of any other player. Even if you could only use it once per day it wouldn’t be balanced – because it fundamentally breaks the concept of the game. It’s broken.
So that’s basically how I feel about rogues in pvp. I think they’re broken in the sense that they fundamentally break the game. Sure, with the right strategy and gear you can beat them. But when a rogue that you cannot detect despite your best efforts stuns you, and you trinket out and are re-stunned and remain stunned until you die — that is broken.
I don’t have a problem with abilities that take away control of your character; however, I do have a problem with an ability that takes away control of your character and allows you to be killed while you literally can do nothing about it. Stuns are fine, as long as damage breaks the stun. Ditto on fears, and sheeps, and traps, and mind control.
Ultimately no player should be able to take away my ability to play the game.
Again, I’m not talking about balance — I’m not saying that you can’t destroy a rogue when you see him coming, or when your have a team of people gang up on him. I understand that pvp is about teamwork. I’m talking about a fundamentally broken mechanic in which one player can rob you of your ability to play the game, and kill you while you sit there and can’t do anything about it.
So yeah. Broken.
(32 votes, average: 4.63 out of 5)
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you just read my mind… =P
Member
In PVP…
Put your detect on stealth.
Put your pet on aggro.
Set a macro so you frost trap then disengage.
With your dps (and the fact that they wear leather), you’ll never have to worry about an a stupid rogue in pvp again.
amen to this, everything we can do breaks on damage but not them.
also a rogue that knows what he is doing, will sap, hit you with some dot, then vanish,then do it again, one of the big issues i have is with disengage, when they vanish(or whatever it is they do to get out of combat) since they are out of combat we can use disengage to get some distance. I hate hitting my trink, then disengage, and just sit there, then boom stunned again. Broken is right.
that should read
i have is with disengage, when they vanish(or whatever it is they do to get out of combat) since they are out of combat we CAN’T use disengage to get some distance.
ok so if you do manage to pull a disengage off while a rogue is stabbing you in the back how do you plan to stay away from him with slowing poisons on you. it buys you about 2 secs before hes back on you. You have probs blown your pvp trinket to get out of stuns so im sure that wont help…
At the end of the day if a rogue gets a decent opener on you then your pretty much finished… That is in my experience anyways.
Member
See, I think it would be nice (not necessarily balancing or fixing this scenario) for our guns to do more damage and throw people back when used at point blank range. To help fix the scenario, I’d like for our hunter’s mark to disable rogue vanish. I mean, hey, we’ve marked them.
This is my number one pet peave so I am glad you brought it up. I can stun a rogue with scatter shot, or freeze them in a trap, or even put them to sleep with my cool survival talent. But if my pet or I do any damage at all to them – BOOM! stunned again without a trinket. This one issue is way beyond broken. “Can’t do that while stunned, Can’t do that while stunned, Can’t do that while stunned, Can’t do that while DEAD!” The primary reason I dislike battlegrounds.
What about Palidans that can unleash massive attacks while in the bubble or casters that can damage or run away from you while simply obsorbing all of our nasty hunter dps? This too my hunter friends is broken.
Chimy – thanks for the advice, ill definately give it a try. But once your stunned that first time it is all over but watching your health drop to zero so you can transport to the graveyard.
Member
Back in the old days, Hunters Mark DID keep a rogue from stealthing. It made them unable to stealth until the effect was removed, and also made them unable to cast vanish. The Blizzard decided that wasnt fair. Go figure.
Also, is it really fair or balanced that you have to use an ITEM with a cooldown, just to beat a class that uses weaker armor than you?
Us hunters are the only class in the game that can be neutralized just by staying near us. I think we need to put some of those stat stick rogue weapons to use and have some decent melee, and a deterrence that works a little more like evasion.
Member
Correction: they could cast vanish, but they would just do a little flip and then be in stealth, but still visible to everyone.
Many a times had a Rogue ambushed me in Gadget, only for me to mark them and watch them die along with me from guard aggro.
@ Chimy
Detect stealth is basically worthless. If a rogue is that close you’re already most like in his/her killzone.
Pet on aggressive, means your pet will basically be everywhere. So if your pet is already attacking someone, then you have to get it back to you to attack the rogue. You’ll most likely be dead before your pet makes it back to you.
Also don’t forget that with improved vanish comes the speed boost and the improved speed for a burst. As a hunter, you’ll be hurting in the backside before you can target again.
If you get a hunter’s mark on a rogue any class that can dispel magic can remove it. Why is our mark considered magic?
Our best bet is to fight in tandem to defeat a rogue.
Member
OMG!. I’ve been pleading that for a year. It is THE most frustrating thing that I have had happen to me in PVP. And yes, its very broken. Glad to see that I’m not the only one complaining for getting owned by some cowardly Rogue.
Sorry, improved vanish has improved stealth and speed for a burst when it is first used.
I agree with you 100% Frost. It makes me feel so powerless when that happens. Especially all the work I put into practicing PvP and getting gear and weapons I wanna be able to reap the benefits of destruction.
Member
Like I said…It’s annoying as hell.
also Master Call, what a joke, try it next time a rogue has you stun locked, “can’t do that while stunned” well what good is it then?
Member
aye. if i’m in the mood for pvp and i throw my whole hateful set on a get in there and buff up and get ready and charge! i really dont want to be stunned and dead 12 seconds later. just makes me not pvp for the rest of the day. i did just read on wowinsider that there are nerfs coming for rogues though but only really to FoK which isn t used that much
Contributor
To be perfectly honest, I can’t really single out a class that feels broken or OP to me in PvE as of the most recent patch. Blizzard is doing its homework.
Can’t speak to PvP though, since I don’t do it much. Though we got to the new 3rd boss(es) in 10M ToC, which is basically a glorified 10-on-6 arena battle. And those impossible bastards ARE broken.
Member
i dont think i can type enough on this phone to really get out how i feel about rogues in bgs from my phone. i agree. broken. they can stop you dead and just mutilate you. only real way out ive found is spam the crap out of freeze trap and sn ake trap and hope you catch that spot in between, disengage, and commence pummeling, it isnt that high of a success rate though.
Member
@hedd dude. first sentence is fail
Member
@Nochecazador
Yep, you make some very good points and I don’t claim that it’s a perfect solution, but it does work quite well in some situations.
If you’re in a group, rogues are at a disadvantage. The guy next to you will see the rogue come out of stealth and start wailing on him. All rogues wear leather and usually have somewhere between 18000-21000 health. For us, if we can get the shots off, that’s between 5-10 seconds of combat that we can do the damage. Providing you have a pvp build, you likely have frost trap with entrapment enabled, and scatter shot, as well as snake trap available right away in the 3.2 release.
If you’re by yourself, (and in many pvp bgs there usually aren’t any mobs around) and you have the aggro on and the detect stealth up, the pet will attack the rogue before you hear the “whoo” sound that indicates there’s a rogue around. If your pet is already engaged, you’re obviously in combat with multiple opponents and you’re going to lose unless you have multiple allies who are supposed to wail on the rogue if he comes out of stealth.
Anyways, when the pet attacks, that puts them out of stealth and into combat. At this point, they realize they’re in trouble and will try to vanish. It’s at this point, your job is to keep them *in* combat. Depending on the skill of the rogue, this could be hard to do, but a freezing arrow in the right place might do it, or if they’re dumb enough to come into your sphere again, your pet will be happy to assist you.
Otherwise, with scatter shots disorienting them so you can get some distance, your snakes knocking down their ability to run and poisoning them, your frost trap or freezing trap using up their trinkets and/or slowing them down, you can get a good 5-10 seconds on them before they get to you.
I’m not saying you’ll win every time, but if we did.. well.. things would be out of balance.
Now, I certainly don’t claim to be a pvp expert, having never set foot in an arena. There are probably a lot of people out there who are way better at hunter pvp than me. But I did get the majority of my current 200+ gear from bgs because my friends (although they try) suck at raiding.
Just trying to pass on some of the little pieces of information that have helped me out.
PS: Oh, and make sure you ‘scare beast’ on druids in bear/cat form. They LOVE that.
Member
OMFG @chimy never even thought about using scare beast on druids …. you are my new hero
Member
They get so madddddd. You can almost hear them yelling through the screen. XD
More Frost QQ
Seriously though, while levelling my Xtreme Soloing Turtle in Storm Peaks, was camped for a long while
-Daddyodwarf (Stonemaul)
Dear Rogue Killer Hunters:
I’d like to refer you to my favorite site for hunter PVP tips: huntsmanslodge.com
Particularly take a look at the Hunter PVP macros: http://huntsmanslodge.com/3035/top-ten-hunter-pvp-macros.htm
The one most specific to rogues is:
1. Target Nearest Enemy / Anti-Rogue macro
Every Hunter should have this macro. With one button press it will target your nearest enemy, place a Hunter’s Mark on them, send your pet to attack and begin your auto attack. I use this macro every single time I step into an arena or battleground. On one hand, it can be used as a “lazy” Hunter macro for targeting, but what it’s really intended for is to prevent stealthed targets from getting the jump on you.
Whether I’m defending a node in Arathi Basin or standing on a flare in arena, I always have my fingertip at the ready to hit this key the moment I hear that dreaded sound of a Rogue or Feral Druid coming up on me. This macro can save you precious hit points by putting them in combat before they can pop an opener on you.
/targetenemy
/cast Hunter’s Mark
/petattack
/startattack
There are several others that are really important, especially the wingclip/disengage/petattack macro.
Combine this target macro with a wingclip/disengage/petattack macro and you have a decent chance of surviving a rogue attack. No guarantees, but a chance.
That said, it shouldn’t require top macros just to survive the opening attack of a class without sitting there in stun.
So I absolutely agree with Frost: Rogues are BROKEN, and ruin the PVP experience.
Member
Oh, while we’re sharing tips, too, most of you probably know this, but we use ‘feign death’ differently in pvp. Yes, we’re not fooling anyone, so it’s not going to help with enemy aggro, but it will cause them to lose target on you for second, which will function as an interrupt for many spells. I really don’t have anything against druids, but it’s fun to make them waste 2.5 seconds on a starfire cast.
Frost, don’t take it the wrong way, but I joked eralier: no advises on PvP from raiders please
Roque’s are one of the easiest classes to kill in PvP for a hunter. They go down like a charm. Except of course if they got you in a stunlock.
What people miss, is that PvP is a team-effort. That most people just go in the queue and play solo is true, but if you’d ever joined a PvP-guyild and do pre-mades, you see how cool PvP is.
During BC, I used my mage for raiding and hunter for PvP. I ended up being a PvP-junkie during BC.
Trust me, there is nothing imbalanced on roques. They can stunlock you and nuke you down without you having a chance. But role one, and find out how often you are killed as a roque before even getting near the hunter, and if you are there, when you are getting killed by the hunter’s teammate.
In a normal PvP, ‘team’mates usually let you ‘rot’ and die, but in a true team, it is different. Plus of course, many hunters don’t know how to use their pet and traps tro protect them from a rogue sneeking on you. And then hunter’s do silly things like wanting to leap forward …
No, and don’t take this as an offence, hunter’s (as any other class) who complain about the stunlock of rogues, don’t play PvP properly. It’s the same as cloth-casters complaining about hunter’s shooting them of their mounts and silencing them and then nuking them down in 3 shots Read casters-forums, you’ll see them wanting us nerved…
And imagine a nice plated warrior fighting some other warrior, and then being nuked to sh#t by a hunter-cannon. That isn’t fun either for them.
Also, as I tried to explain in an earlier post, PvP is not about any class being able to kill any other class. It’s like scissors, paper and stone. You need the right combo’s. Just as in a raid, you want the right members for optimal buffs etc. And you need to work together as a team. If you don’t – which most people don’t in a BG – yes, the ganking rogue is a pain.
On the other hand, having a group of ganking rogue’s in the oposing team, when you are premade, is a slaugherhouse. For them that is …
And while they are busy getting on top of the dps list – completely irrelevant in a BG – the opposing team is winning the game.
This is because as good roque’s can probably explain you, in a BG, roques have much more usefull roles than just ganking you. The ganking is probably lots of fun when you are a rogue, but a rogue can be so much more.
There is nothing imbalanced on rogues, there is however often great imbalance in skills and makeup of the BG teams.
This is the #1 reason I dont PvP much anymore. Its like Blizz removed CC from PvE and stuck it in PvP.
Hell I know friends and guildmates who target Hunters specifically because we are such easy targets in PvP.
Or you can dual spec to BM. I love rogues, put pet(preferably one with DOT like cat) on defensive, cast intimidate, trinket, BW, snake trap, frost trap, wing clip, hunters mark, disengage, serpent sting, fire and strafe…
And make some flares…
Member
@Kazador: Wow. Neat site. Thanks for the link.
Member
I have maintained this exact sentiment since the very first rogue stunlocked and killed me. Blizzard always maintained that their abilities were working as intended and that there was a way for each class to counter the situation. What really rubbed salt in the ever open wound was when they started nerfing other abilities of other classes because they were not “Balanced” while maintaining that Rogues are working as intended.
I was going to write a long post, but thankfully remembered: I don’t PvP. This is one of the primary reasons why.
So to all the PvP rogues out there who like to lock down their opponents while shredding them, and who like to avoid damage simply by not ever giving their opponents a chance to strike, I say this:
Go to it, my friends. Practice your tips and tricks on thinking opponents all you like, so long as you ply them equally against my opponents when you’re in my party.
Oh, and if you’re a rogue who is only “alive” when PvPing, and essentially a mindless whinebot when in a group, then my previous message is not for you. Eat hot lead and die. Preferably while fellating some hunter’s boomstick. Yeah… just…like… THAT. Now just hold right there, and I’ll go get you a towel.
My experience from 2 days ago: Arathi basin, Gold Mine, running to cap, knew a rogue was around, saw him stealth before I could hit him with Mark (which is pointless anyway because they just vanish from that) A kidney blow to stun me, he’s opened up with his most annoying move, because he can go to work and you can’t do anything. The only other class this stupid is the frost mage with his deep freeze where he can lock you from a distance and cast away.
I checked my recount of this engagement with the rogue, from the opening kidney blow to death I had an engagement time of 3.62s. The lag of my trinket kicking in hadn’t even cleared properly. It took me a second to realise I was stunned, another to hit my trinket and I was moving before I realised I was dead.
Admin
Let me stress something here: I’m not complaining that rogues are OP – I’m saying the stunlock ability is broken. If I’m in a BG and see a rogue out there – I have no problems killing him unless he vanishes.
But if a rogue gets the jump on you – you’re sitting with flare out, pet on aggressive, traps around you — and odds are they will get the first stun before you see them if they’re at all good — and you just die in 12 seconds of stunlock — that is a broken mechanic.
This is a much more evident problem in arenas than battlegrounds.
Also, I’ve never managed to escape a rogue on me, using any trick. Between their multiple vanishes, speed boost, ranged slow, and ability to teleport to you — it is not possible to kite a rogue who knows what he’s doing at all. But that’s a balance thing. Stunlocked to death is a broken thing.
hey frost, what game company did you work for? thats very interesting.
as far as pvp is concerned, i have never arena’d but i PVP all the time and i dont have to much problems with rogues, unless they do catch you out somewhere all alone, well the good ones anyways, i have beaten a few that might not have known how to play the class very well.
Member
I’m not debating the spirit of your post, Frost. I agree that stunlock is broken, but there are things we can try to do to mitigate the problem. PvP gear also helps to reduce their crit potential and you’re not exactly one to PvP spec your character, so there’s definitely that, too, you have to admit.
If your rogue is getting off a stun with pet on aggressive, flare on, and traps out, that is one badass ninja rogue.. I don’t want to be anywhere near that mofo. =D
Admin
I’m not exaggerating about the pet, flare, traps, stealth detection — that’s about 90% of the rogues I come across in arenas. But of course they sap my partner first.
Not one to spec for PVP? Since when? I respec for everything constantly!
@ Armin
Are you kidding me? I’ve been playing for 3 years, its hardly about every Hunter but you just being bad at not pew pewing fast enough. If a half decent Rogue gets the drop on you, (which they do unless it’s a large cluster-fuck fight around an objective) you will die unless you get some lucky burst.
Traps are fail, can be trinketed or shadow-stepped from, deterence is 5 seconds of standing around not being able to hit him. Run if you like, he’s going to follow you. Disegage is a prayer to Christ that you’re facing away from a Hill. Detence 3 yards up a hill is hardly win. Deterence 30 yards down it for fall damage and a prayer you aren’t slowed or he doesn’t just vanish again. None-win again.
Member
Well, you have to admit, Frost, you don’t really advertise pvp talent trees on this board. If that’s not reality then I retract my statement.
I just find that on my server, if you’re not ridiculously outmatched gearwise, it’s usually possible to get your dog to pull a rogue into a fight under the right conditions. That’s all.
As I mentioned earlier, I don’t do arenas. The people who play in arenas are typically arena-geared and it’s not just rogues that own my group in there. It’s everyone. The same thing happens when an arena team shows up in warsong gulch to get some quick honor. It ain’t pretty.
Member
And I absolutely love burning Pally’s down to 2-3 % and watching them bubble, Heal to full health and then run right at me and pulverize me while taking no damage what so ever. And whats up with every class in the game having “Pets” now?
I found that movement is the best defense against a rogue. Let’s face it. We should be moving and not standing still for to long. If you’re moving, then it’s a little harder for them.
I got lazy in AB last weekend. It had been ages since I did a BG. I was standing still and got hammered by a rogue. Then a team mate yelled out to move around and stop standing still. I thought duh. To much PVE. Plus i was in my BM spec so my shot selection was reduced. I still did great for the day, but next time I go back in as MM.
I only saw that rogue once again after that. He won again, but it was close.
@ Chimy
I realized after the battle I could have disoriented him the second time, but the fist time he got me from behind, while I was trying to kill a tauren resto druid that would not die. Man, he making defending flag truly hard and boldly standing in the crossfire doing so.
I did also have a DK that teamed up with me. It was awesome. No rogues for miles around us. Even got a healer to stay and defend keeping us all up. We won that AB. Wonder why? j/k
@ Kazador
Thanks for the tip. I’ve been on that site and seen the macros. I’ll have to set some up. Especially with being able to lay multiple traps. Want to disarm one, well guess what Mr. Rogue you can’t cut both wires. LOL.
Stunlock = Broken…..I fully agree.
I still think HM should not be magical. If you get it on you, you’re stuck with that unitl the time wears off or it’s reapplied to someone else. That change would be awesome and an equalizer to a minor extent.
Frost and Malania, yes if half a decent rogue gets on me, I die within 12 seconds. Chanceless! However, if the same rogue is attacking my partner, it takes me about the same 12 secs to nuke the rogue down. Chanceless as well. No vanish, stealth or running away will save him.
But the most importtant thing about PvP is as I said, PvP is not about every class having a chance against every other class. Healers don’t do damage in a raid either and hunter’s can’t tank. This exact same concept applies to proper PvP’ing! Hunter’s are cannon’s and must get downed by the rogue. If not, the hunter will do way too much damage to your team. That’s one of the reason they have rogues; to kill healers and ranged. Other classes in my team then protect me by healing me and killing the rogue before he kills me.
Example: When I start nuking I *know* there is a rogue comming. If not, the rogue sucks, as he should get my dps out as soon as possible. And since I know they come from behind, there is e.g. always a freezing trap there. If his trinket is not on cooldown, I’m still toast, but else this buys me e.g. valuable seconds. Most of the time, I die if my teammates don’t save me, but still not infrequent I even manage to save myself.
The issue is that most teams suck as a team. If your partners don’t help you, that is the issue, not the rogue.
Compare it to PUG’s. Just as much as good players doing a raid PUG isn’t always a good raid, good players forming a BG is often not a good PvP team.
Also most occasional-PvP’ers don’t go in PvP gear, Yes a few items, but they forgot to respec, regem and add different enchants. Especially with the changes to resillience, having just a handfull of PvP gear ain’t doing the job.
And again, role a rogue and you’ll find out the hunter’s are a pain in the ass and should be nerfed seriously. The grass is always greener on the other side. When you are a rogue, hunters suddenly start nuking you from insane distances (Hawk Eye anyone? Oh, eh, you did respec for PvP did you? Don’t go in raid-spec…
) and kill you half before you had the chance to come close. Running away is no issue especialy now they have kill-shot …
Sure, you can stealth if you have the luck not being seen and walk slow as a snail to him not being detected, but by that time he has nuked your teammate down already. When you role a rogue, there is only one fair conclusion: Hunters should be nerfed!
Read some forums of other classes how they complain about us too. Actually seriously, many of my tactics – also against rogues – I actually got this way. E.g. I never knew how much casters hated my silencing shot. I always had the feeling it didn’t do much. Well, I was wrong.
I think we are missing the whole point of the post. It’s about the uber stun lock. Yes, in the grand scheme of things, rogues are there to take out range and healers, however, to be stunlocked and unable to even turn around before you are dead without having a trinket or racial ability, that’s what is broken. It’s fine that the rogue can stun the hell out of a hunter, but then kill them without the stun ever being broken? That’s the point being made and that goes towards any class, not just hunters. They can do that to any class before that class can do anything.
FROST,
It is great you provoked this conversation. The PvP hunters, usually silent, are finally speaking out. That is what some of us wanted to hear.
MORE PVP TIPS PLEASE!!!!
Aldax
Member
Armin (& arena posters): Thats all well and fine in arena combat, where teamwork is key.
But out in the field when your by your lonesome, its just flat out wrong the way they can sneak up and stunlock you. It’s not even the fact that I’m going to die. I can live with that. I chose a pvp server, I’m prepared to die. But not without as fight. I want the CHANCE to win, and stunlocking robs people of that chance.
I dont think the point of the post is to say that we should kill rogues 100% of the time, just that stunlocking is a broken mechanic that weighs the odds in 1v1 in the rogues favor.
Member
i don’t care about gear and strat to kill a rogue…those slimy bastards are annoying and need to be nerfed in my opinion. the latest trend on my server and i don’t know if this is true for other servers but in BGs 2 or 3 rogues will team up and roam together destroying and annoying everything in their path. undead rogues are by far the most frusterating things in this game to me. i refuse to step into BGs because of that class.
Member
Just my two cents –
My main is a Rogue (booooouuuuu) and I have done a lot (fun) of PvP with it. And @Armin is absolutely right. The dynamics in Pvp are completely different than in PvE… but you already know that.
It’s a team effort. If you enter Bg’s thinking you can solo every class like they were regular mobs then your wrong. Pvp is all about collaboration between classes. Just role a Rogue and see how frustrating it is to be feared X number of times by locks while they cast every DOTs they have on you…lol
And yes, on 1-1, if the Rogue attacks 1st then your chances to survive have diminished greatly., but not completely. I have been downed but Hunters before. But again, PvP “wised” healers will have you on radar and should/will save your stunned butt.
But again, people enter BG’s and don’t have any idea of their role or what to do. I have seen so many times DPS’ers focusing on tanks instead of downing the healers 1st…
Anyways, I don’t think it’s “Broken”. From a PvE point of view it might… but again… if you die to a Rogue in PvP then blame your healers/teammates for not coming to help.
Member
@Flatulantjoe
No need to insult the class. Same could be said to 2 or 3 Elemental Shammies grouping and downing you in 2 sec with their lightning strikes. Don’t solo them… group’up!
Yume: Your last post highlights one of the reasons that WoW is so incredibly popular, but at the same time next to impossible to balance. There are so many classes and so many “games within the game” that lots of people who like different aspects can come and find something they can enjoy in WoW.
At the same time though, it’s simply not possible to make every class even in every type of situation. The moment you try to balance a class for arena, it becomes overpowered or underpowered in BG. If you try to balance classes in BG, they become imbalanced at raiding or arena.
Member
I’m certainly not looking to make everyone even. That would be boring. As I said, I think alot of people are seeing this post as a direct attack on rogues, when really its the stunlock mechanic that is the focus. Like I said, I really dont care one bit if a rogue kills me singlehandedly. I just dont want it to be so degrading. I want the satisfaction that I managed to land a few hits on him before he got me. Its the pride that you get when you stand up to a bully and give him a black eye, even though he beat you into the pavement, rather than the shame of just laying down and taking.
Yume, has a point there: ganking rogues in a PvP realm. OK, but to change the rogues’ ability just for that is a bit far I guess …
What people still miss (Glad to see the post updated
), is that if you take away the rogue’s stun, you take away the pretty much only weapon they have. In terms of survivability they are toast then with only leather, low health and no shields. In terms of dps, they will be completeley chanceless against any warrior or even many tanks as the delta is just too small compared to the health/armor delta. Especially if the other got a good defense cap.
The whole concept is to sneek up to you , stun you and kill you *without you then having a chance*. If you had a chance, well, they would be seriously unbalanced as they would suck in PvP.
During a raid, you get stunned, feared, etc also all the time. And often a lot longer than 12 secs. And there you can die as well during this time. No difference IMHO.
Again role a rogue and you’ll see that the grass might be greener over there, but the dog is also a lot meaner
That said, if you regear, respec and mostly change tactics, you do have a chance when stunned. Most of the time one-on-one they still win, just as most of the time when I see them first, I win. But, it is definitly not the done case as some people think. Especially if got teammates to back you up. Any decent healer can easily keep you up in a stunlock. No sweat for them.
But also solo, many time when riding my mount acrosss AV, I get ganked by a stealth rogue. And stunlock or not, it ain’t always them getting the insignia …
Member
The thing is, though, were not talking about taking away the rogues only weapon. We’re asking for it to be replaced. I will admit, lore-wise rogues are supposed to sneak up and murder people. And stunning isnt even the issue here. The key word in stunlock is the ‘lock” portion. How about instead of locking a person down with stuns, give the rogue a higher dodge rate? Or maybe keep the stuns, just change the effects. No class should ever get away with zero damage when fighting a class of equal level. These are just suggestions, mind you, but I’m sure Bizzard could come up with more creative ones.
My point is, removing stunlock, if done properly by Blizzard, wont break any of the stunlocking classes.
Also, grinding PvP gear to PvP? Great. Grinding PvP gear just so rogues cant stunlock you to death? Now THATS a bit far.
I’ve just got to say I’ve thought this same thing since I started doing battlegrounds 3 years ago.
Member
I wanted to share I have been following Armin’s advice on every BG.
I have been killing rogues like flies. Its been fun fun fun.
What did I do?
1. Always team up. Fight within a group.
2. Look for the rogues. You see one. you mark him. You kill him, before anyone else! Your mates will love you for getting the sticky flies off them.
3. Always keep a flair up, and a trap. That keeps them at bay.
+ use the following add on, which is the best replacement for ICU/Personal Sentry. Must have for PvP. http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/spy.aspx
Is it broken? Yes. Are there other classes broken? It seams so. MM hunters are killing mounted casters with silencing shot non-stop. The caster can do no shit about it.
aldax