Hunter Armor Pen vs Agility

Posted: by Frostheim


Note: As of patch 4.0.1 armor pen is no longer available as a stat on gear or gems.

There has been an increasing amount of talk of the value of hunter armor pen vs agility. The whole armor penetration vs agility debate started, as these things tend to, with the spreadsheet theorycrafters who found that at a very high level of armor pen, and with the right armor pen trinkets, armor pen would actually be a better stat point for point than agility.

What’s the Armor Pen Cap?

Right now it’s about 1400 armor penetration. That’s right, 1,400. You now need a crazy amount of armor pen for it to be worth your while, on the other hand our top end loot now has a crazy amount of armor pen on it, making it possible to actually hardcap.

Is Armor Pen Better Than Agility?

For the majority of hunters the answer is no. Agility is better than armor pen (for MM and SV). You should not use armor pen gems, and you should not use armor pen food – you should stack agility. You will do less damage stacking armor pen than if you use agility/attack power in those slots. Obviously BM hunters prefer attack power over agility or armor pen.

However, at a certain high gear levels armor pen does actually surpass agility and you can do more dps by stacking armor pen. The exact number varies depending on your specific gear (’cause there’s more to it than just the ArP) but figure in general somewhere around 800 passive ArP rating from gear (not procs) is needed before armor pen becomes better than agility.

But wait, there’s more:

Because armor pen only benefits our physical shots and not our magical shots, the armor pen versus agility rule only works if you are MM – who have a lot more physical damage. Furthermore, since most of our physical damage is in the form of autoshot and steady shot, we only get the full advantage on fight in which we can stand still a lot. The armor pen advantage works best for hunter who are very skilled at managing their movement (and managing movement is a key skill for all hunters). And you will want a special talent build to take advantage of that (with Imp Steady Shot and no imp arcane) and  remove arcane shot from your rotation except in special circumstances like running shots when nothing else is available.

You can see more details in the WHU MM Armor Pen Build guide.

And even then, if you’re in a fight where you have to move a lot or need to manage multiple target dps (or aoe) the armor pen route may yield lower dps.

How Much Better Is It?

If you can get the gear, the armor pen vs agility is significantly better if you can manage your movement well. You can be competitive without explicitly optimizing for it, however.

Amor Pen Spreadsheet Theorycrafting Error

When the armor pen vs agility was first discovered, it looked like a big deal; however, it turns out the spreadsheets were in error. They were set up to average the armor pen proc from trinkets. Unfortunately, this doesn’t work because once you have that much armor pen, you can actually hit the armor pen cap with the trinket proc. Due to averaging the procs the spreadsheets ignored that, giving it more dps than it could really get.

The error was discovered and the spreadsheets were corrected, which significantly nerfed the armor pen vs agil theoretical damage. Then armor pen was nerfed 20% in patch 3.2.2. It still shows to be better than agility (in the right conditions) but now you need to get up to the hard cap to get the big big benefit.

I recommend stacking agility instead of armor pen except the highest levels of gear. An agility-build hunter is more versatile and can maintain high dps on the move — something that armor pen builds suffer at. And as you well know, most endgame fights involve a lot of moving :)

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  1. Gefro says:

    Thanks for clearing it up dude was starting to hear the talk on my realm so been looking it up and as usual ur first to make it clear. keep up good work m8

  2. Axebrew says:

    In theory, there’s no difference between theory and practice.
    In practice, there is.

    It’s the first thing you learn when you take theory into the field.

  3. Axebrew says:

    …well, at least in theory, it is.

  4. anon says:

    wait, why does BM prefer AP over Agility? I thought marks was traditionally the one that preferred AP, and only recently moved to agility, but BM was always for agility…

  5. Chris says:

    BM prefers AP over agility because their pets do the largest portion of their total damage–40% or more–and AP bonuses are typically twice as large as agility bonuses.

  6. anon says:

    ok, thanks chris.

  7. dd says:

    so i’ve been using BM in bgs and arena and certaily like it mor than survival for pvp. most of the gems in my pvp gear is agility. i know agility gives you more armor, dodge etc. so for BM pvp shud i stick with agility gems and enchants or switch to ap stacking?

  8. Arthemystia says:

    I can’t wait to see what they do with this in, say, the next expansion when we have gear and trinks that put us well beyond this point. A full-scale ArP reworking will likely be in order from Blizzard.

    Until then, thanks for the info. I will happily ignore this debate from now on and continue gemming as I have.

  9. Zakazul says:

    Armor Pen > Agility, in the MM case, in my opinion. Must have.

  10. Wolflore says:

    From my own experience.
    Going to an MM ArPen build is good but is not worth going crazy about getting ArmPen.
    Getting to 500 ArmPen means some sacrifices. Indeed to get there you necesarily have to forego T8 4pc bonus as the only T4 piece with ArmPen is the head. There are some key pieces besides the trinket that you would need to be very lucky to get: Lotrafen or Rune Edge, Giant’s bane, belt of the betrayed, drape of the faceless general, saronite mesh legguards. Plus all your red gems must be at least fractured scarlet rubies.
    So what I have concluded is more or less as follows, to move to a ArmPen rotation you don’t need 500 ArmPen but more like 300. After that it is not worth making the sacrifices to get to 500 because that will offset the gain from ArmPen. So no point in changing all your gems.

  11. Frostheim says:

    Wolflore: if you have under 500 Armor Pen, then an armor pen build (and gems) will give you lower dps than agility.

    I appreciate people giving their opinions; however, this is not a matter of opinion, but fact. If you have data that disagrees with the theorycrafting (and the spreadsheets) then by all means let us know — we’re always happy to have our science challenged with new facts.

  12. quivering says:

    im fine with gemming for agility and just equipping a arp proc trink, like grim toll or (ideally) the mjonnir stone (i think its called that, its the thorim 10m hard trinket)

    Im MM and my grim toll, despite putting me over cap some 70 pts, has given me higher numbers than bandits insignia against ulduar bosses and target dummies a like.

  13. Armin says:

    I have a mixture of Ulduar and Naxx gear, and both my experience, dummy testing and the famous spreadsheet still ranks AP on par with agility. I can understand that a SV goes for agility because of talents, but for a MM it’s not that clear. Piercing shots and the various gems and talents that increase critical strike damage benefit from having more critical strike, but you lose a lot of AP and therefore base damage. Still so many MM hunters take agility, so they can’t all be wrong either. I’ve not managed to put my finger behind the issue.

    One of the reasons is probably that many MM only use one point in GftT. This means that even in patchwork style fights, you need crit ratings way above 50% crits to keep your pet from being focus starved. Depends a bit on the pet (wolf uses less focus than e.g. cat), but one point in GftT means that any pet will have some delays in its bite-spell. Using Ej’s sheet confirms the theory. Since a non-starved MM pet will do at least 13% of the hunter’s damage and SV hunter pets do only about 6 a 7% you get the picture. On the other hand, one point in GftT is one point less elsewhere …

    The second explaination is that people look too much at 25 mans. The bufs in the sheet are so that indeed agility is way better. When I however examine the bufs, I often don’t get them all. Either because I’m in a 10 man raid or I do pugs where I constantly need to check if I get the ideal bufs. So if you got a good team and you can rely on having the right bufs, I’d go for agility. If you do more pug’s or the team just cannot do the ideal bufs you may even just go for raw AP.

  14. Malania says:

    Awesome, I’ve been following this debate for a few months. Trying to keep up with it all during work is a nightmare. Nice and clear now.

    Cheers Frost.

  15. dangphat-talnivarr (eu) says:

    I have sufficient Ar Pen and the 4set tier 8 bonus and have been considering changing my rotation slightly to remove arcane shot. One of my main thoughts is that arcane shot is mana heavy and keeping more steadies up raises the setbonus proc chance, is it woth dropping arcane shot for these reasons alone?

  16. Armin says:

    dangphat-talnivarr, if you drop arcane mana should not be the main reason. (And in a 25 man, there should be totems and/or SV hunter’s as well.) But you can get rid of the improved arcane shot talents and put them elsewhere.

    And very important, try then to get the improved steady. Normally this isn’t such a good talent, but without arcane you’ll know it pretty much always procs on chimerra as your rotation will be CS, AS, St St St – repeat. And even if during interruptions it procs of your aimed that is still pretty OK, as you likely will have put talents in barage and the improved version as well.

    The downside is that manu ulduar fight are mobile. So you may consider a dual spec if you are on progression.

    The 4 set bonus isn’t considerred that good compared to getting either Mantle of Fiery Vengeance or Gloves of the Steady Hand. But of course this requires actually getting these peaces. I’m still stuck at the 2 set bonus and would welcome another drop to get the 4 set myself :-)

  17. Malania says:

    @Armin

    Well hardmode gear is abit harder to get than a 4set =P

  18. Sleth says:

    in my opinion best scenario would be : have 2 set of items with u, one for MM with ArP gems and one for SV or MM with agility for the fight where movement is required, this is very hard to achieve.

  19. TomatoeJoe says:

    With the advent of the Dot.com generation comes an increased minimizing of spelling, thus limiting access for Newbies like me. I am sure you all know what you’re talking about, but I, however, do not. In a previous post by Armin you listed abbreviations for a shot rotation ending with “St”, what does that mean?
    I am a level 80 hunter who has often been asked, “What is your DPS?” I have never been able to really answer these people. I usually stare awkwardly at my screen checking my character info. wondering, “Does he mean crit. rating?” All the while writing down the names of hunters who ripped me a new one in BG(Battle Ground) so I can later look up their talents on the Armory–Ya, I copy. I see a lot of speculation on what it takes to make a great character, of any class. One thing remains constant when you come across a well geared rival in the field you’re likely to suffer a humiliating loss shortly after– Even in some cases by lower levels. And by “Well Geared”, I mean NOT questing gear. Gear attained in a dungeon.
    I think, we should get away from theory a little bit. I apologize if I have offended anyone’s intelligence by saying this. I am a 41 year old man who likes playing video games. I like things in life, in general, to be relatively simple. As life has enough BS(Cow-Crap) in it as it is. It seems the theory for this game is endless.
    Often I have heard of stories of players with exotic gear, or rare pieces. These comments usually end with an editorial of envy. You know the one, “That guy must be a real loser, playing all the time–Has no life.” I prefer to think it was opportunity. He ran guilds with friends. Maybe he worked for Blizzard and played during lunch-break….In any case, I’m sure someone wants to post his rebuttal to this post expressing his opinion. But just remember it will be start of an endless list of opinions who don’t all agree with you. I welcome any help anyone can offer.

  20. Frostheim says:

    Tomatoe: I’m not sure what there is in your post to argue with… maybe the limitless theory? Theorycrafting is nothing but math, and it does come to an end :) The problem is that every patch that changes things means the math has to be re-worked to determine what is best.

    Regarding “What is your dps” you can find the answer on how to find that here: http://www.warcrafthuntersunion.com/2009/03/how-to-measure-dps/

    Regarding “that guy has no life” you might enjoy this bit of pontificating, which touches on that topic: http://www.warcrafthuntersunion.com/2009/07/the-space-between-hardcore-and-casual/

    Otherwise, the Guides section of this site will teach you everything you need to know to optimize your hunter for groups or raids (alas, I am not a big pvper). We’ll show you exactly what talents, gear, gems, enchants, rotations, pet, pet talents, etc. Drop me an email if you have any questions that are not answered here!

  21. :) :) :) :) :) I do 5k dps self buffed :) :) :)

  22. Ras says:

    One issue that i haven’t seen come up is lag. I think alot of dps has to do with connection. Its almost in the same boat as hit rating where if ur not actually hiting ur target it shows on recount. This is a simple problem to solve, however often overlooked in raids. My hunter has around 400 ArP and with the 7/57/7 build Im seein less dps than with my survival build. Im thinkin its because of my connect running at 700plus at 6 frames. Anyone have the same problem?

  23. Gefro says:

    700ms is alot mate have you tryed trailing the net for solutions on dropping ur ms. I usally find im around 200ms while playing using wirless and 50 pluged in maybe try that

  24. Zhee says:

    I kind of disagree with the ones saying that you can’t get the required base amount for ArP stacking without geming your gear. I have 501 ArP just from gear without geming for it. And also i’m planing to replace sholders and one ring with ArP ones. That should lead me close to ~600 ArP without geming for it. So in this case i don’t loose much agility.
    A good item to use for that is Banner of Victory (from patch 3.2) that gives you 80+ ArP.
    Spreadsheets also show bigger dps by using the ArP build (no Arcane shots) even without the required 556 base ArP. It starts showing dps increase from ~400 ArP.
    In practice with ~400 ArP and without using Arcane shot i had a slight increase in dps, but that was barely noticable. Haven’t tested the new trinket in raids though, but hopefuly there will be slightly bigger dps increase.

  25. Frostheim says:

    I’m aware that the spreasheets show an advantage earlier — they used to show it even earlier still, but of course they were wrong. To really see a difference you need both the high ArP and on of the trinkets, and the build. This is one of those situations where real raids are different from the spreadsheets — especially since the two biggest shots where ArP helps you (auto and steady) are the shots you are most likely to lose in running fights (which spreadsheets don’t model at all)

  26. Zhee says:

    Well I agree that you can’t realy trust spreadsheets. But what i’m talking about is that for MM hunters ArP stacking realy does make you do a bit more dps in raid fights.

  27. kulkul says:

    u own frostheim im gonna give her a try as surv and buy some pots for phase 2 and just burn out on her
    if i keep failing i will just do as you.

  28. kulkul says:

    lol posted at wrong issue hehe :)

  29. Gaxaan says:

    Hey!
    Very helpful guides here. I’m just wondering, is my gear good enough to switch my agi gems with Armor Pen? http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Bloodfeather&cn=Gaxaan&gn=Drakengaard

  30. Warhoof says:

    This is where a strange line is drawn for Hunter DPS. Only if you have extremely good gear, I’m talking 8.5+ and Ulduar gear, would Armor Pen even be remotely viable. My question is this: If haste makes your auto-shots come faster, and if it makes Steady Shot’s cast time faster, then wouldn’t a haste/armor pen be a viable way to go?

  31. duka says:

    hmmm well im in full toc gear and iv stacked all gems on agility including gear is based on ap/agility, and even though its a more favoured geared set up for survival spec i still obtain more dps as mm.

    On the dummy as MM i do around 4.5 k dps, while as survival i tend to get like 4.1 k dps… this is like nearly 10% dps difference. And looking at all these debats im just thinking shud i replace all my agility gems for arp? If i do this i will have a base arp of 800 that excluding from procs, i mea if arp for my instance is the way to go, then i might as well go farm grim toll, but even then will arp>ag in the same gear but hard raids to come in the future?

  32. Nirav says:

    is armor pen better than crit and agility for MM hunters.. i know everyone says agility is yet better.. but i think differently with the numbers showing up.

    20 agility :- 0.25% crit
    20 crit :- 0.44% ap increase
    20 armor pen :- 1.43% ap.

    this is what it shows when i gem it in any piece.. it shows me thee figures when i gem .. so shd we be gemming armor pen gems or balance it out between armor pen and crit..

    i have got 45% armor pen at the moment and i dont have any trinks that proc.
    please advise and let me know which direction i should head towards.
    atm i hit 5.3k dps in 25m voa and other instances with all buffs in tact and little movement..
    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Rivendare&n=Mods
    this is my armory link.. thank you

  33. Flileaf says:

    A question i’ve been trying to answer is why stack armor pen when intellect give an ap bonus (with talents) very close to ArP while increasing your mana pool in a substantial way.

    The intellect would also benefit an sv hunters mana return to a raid as the mana return is based on the hunter’s mana pool.

    Another is that if agility only increases crit chance, why not use gems that give a higher overall crit bonus. I do see a lot of hunters stacking pure agility gems rather than mixed agil/crit or pure crit. This would reduce damage to the hunter but doesn’t do as much for dps as other gems would. And the same goes for pure attack power gems, it doesn’t make sense in light of other gems giving you gains in more than one stat. ie int giving attack power and mana pool.

    Thus the strategy of using intellect gems wherever possible instead of AP gems then saving the AP enchants for gear that AP enchants offer better returns than available Int/Crit enchants would.

    Above all crit lets you use the AP and weapon damage potential you already have to the fullest, so it seems that stacking anything before Crit would lead to diminishing returns. The pro ArP argument only stands up when you have gear that gives you a lot of ArP to begin with.

    I should say my strategy for mm and sv exludes pet damage as i’d rather not lose a pet to melee range boss aoe and be able to ensure i have the attack power bonus throughout the entire encounter. I save the pet for certain adds like the snobolds from the first boss in TotC.

    My compliments to your group for putting together the most common sense website for hunters i’ve come across.

  34. Frostheim says:

    You don’t gem for int over AP because your gem option is 20 int vs 40 ap. We do gear for agility because agility gives us both attack power (1ap for every agility) and crit rating. And it turns out for MM and SV hunters, 1 agility is better than 2 attack power.

    And you should be using your pet in just about every fight. Not doing so is like throwing out 10% of your dps :)

  35. Lilcheeks says:

    Couple weeks late on the thread here, but since this arp vs agility debate centers around when the hunter arp value passes agility at 1400, and this requires a trinket proc which is on a 45 second internal CD, doesn’t that make agiltiy better the vast majority of the time anyway for those who have the gear to gem up to around 900 passive arp? With full raid buffs I show agility still being more valuable than arp with 900 arp or so(which is somewhere around what is achievable with gems and gear)

    When it comes down to it for me, at this point it really seems we are better off just taking the better piece of gear, rather than passing until we get a piece with arp on it and just gem for agi.

  36. Akhilex says:

    I just got Deathbringer’s will tonite in our raid. Now i was thinking, if i were to gem arp along with this trinket and Darkmoon card: greatness. i would be sitting at 95.568% armor pen.. Now is this worth doing?

    If i switch over here is what i lose
    when gemming agi (with Deathbringer’s will and grimm toll ( mj runestone never dropped for me :( ) i have :

    5167 ap ( with hawk) and 50.00% crit
    along with having 62.23% passive arp

    now if i were to gem arp ( with deathbriner’s will and darkmooncard: greatness ( havent gotten dark matter or deaths choice yet)
    i would be at:

    5076 ap ( with hawk) 44.86% crit and a whopping 95.568% passive armor pen ( or 1337 armor pen rating)

    Please note: all armor pen is calculated by 13.99 arp rating = 1% armor pen

    What will be the higher output for dps?

    Gemming all agi or grabbing the 95.568% passive armor pen?

    plz help! :D

  37. Tlord says:

    Banner of Victory VS Mjolnir(?) Runestone.
    Current Stats: 2294agil 5787AP 304(21.72%) ArP
    1/17/57 Build. Explosive being #1 dmging shot also in conjunction with the fact that i have T9 2set bonus with Steady Shot Glyph ( the 2 SS effects justify SS in my rotation IMO).
    NOTE!: Banner of Victory = Equip: Increases you armor penetration rating by 84
    Would I Be Loooking At A Total Revamp Of Gear To Increase My Armor Pen To Some Substantial? Any Comments Or LOGICAL Answers Are Much Appreciated!

  38. DeluksZ says:

    Hi. First of all, I’d like to thanks you for the lots of information U spread over the hunter community. I just found the site but it is very helpful. The thing what made me comment for this specific thread is that I just looked the Ensidia hunters and they has a lot of arpen stacked up. For e.g. Calebv has arpen gems and so forth, although, you stated that this is bad. Why is this difference between the article and the top guild hunter gearing?

  39. Flare says:

    Just curious, but in your calculations for dps comparing armor pen and agility, did you include the armor pen that is generated from a warriors sunder armor? In most raid scenarios, a warrior will have stacked sunder armor on the target, which reduces armor by 25% (350 armor pen rating) and would make it much easier to get to the point where armor pen is more effectve than agility, even without trinket procs, and as a SV hunter. I agree this would really only be an argument in fights where you are mostly standing still, but I was surprised how easy it really was to get to the point where armor pen had the potential to be better than agility.

  40. Frostheim says:

    Yes, I assume that the boss has a full stack of sunder armor and faerie fire on him.

    However, also note that debuffs like sunder armor and faerie fire do *not* affect the armor pen cap at all. If the boss has no sunders, the armor pen cap is 1400 (ie, you want to remove all his armor). If it does have 5 stacks of sunder armor the armor pen cap is 1400 (ie: you want to remove all his armor). Just like it doesn’t matter how much armor he has, it doesn’t matter what debuffs he has.

  41. Ooglah says:

    I am new to the whole hunter thing, I changed my main (retadin) to my hunter for better raid composition and your site has been incredibly helpful. I have spent more time reading the pages of your site than I have actually playing the game lol. My question is, I just got the new ArP trinket from H FoS. I have no ArP gems at the moment, but I still notice a DPS increase using it over my greatness deck (I am using Mark of Supremacy until I can get hit capped without it). Now should I go and gem to be at 100% ArP when my trinket procs? Right now I’m around 84% when it procs and Id hate to lose the crit and AP I get from all the agility gems, plus the trinket procs off criticals and I wouldnt want to see decreased proc chances. What are your thoughts? Thank you.

  42. Frostheim says:

    Stick with agility gems.

  43. Huntard says:

    Hi, i also recently changed my main to hunter. had read that MM hunters needs a massive amt of ArP. thanks to your webby, i now know the cap for ArP is 1400. had farmed for the H FoS trinket for the past 3 weeks, and finally gotten it last nite. after getting that trinket, i decided to go MM and regem my SV (mostly agi gems) to ArP to acheive 722 ArP. now my question is: is this the way to go? by regemming my agi gems to ArP gems, i would then be able to acheive this magical figure of 722, otherwise, my ArP only sits at around 500++ (i know according to your advise, agi is the gem to go). I am hoping to get rid of the ArP gems once i get more gears with ArP on it. advice pls.

  44. Frostheim says:

    This is a common misconception that comes from pre 3.2.2 (before they nerfed armor pen). You do not need a lot of armor pen to play MM. In fact, the vast majority of MM hunters will do better stacking agility over armor pen.

  45. Huntard says:

    Hi, thanks for clearing it up. now i face another problem…. after regemming back to agi, my dps as MM still sucked. in fact i pull more dps as SV then MM. not too sure what went wrong. i use the rotations of Serpent Sting -> Chemira shot -> aimed shot -> steady shot (macroed with Silent shot). not too sure if i should factor arcane shot (i do not have imp arcane shot though), as my ArP is only 501 static.

  46. Nick says:

    This is such horrid information. For the vast majority of hunters hitting 350 arp is an easy feat. If your at 350 arp and playing MM arcane shot should be dropped from your rotation. If you can change gems to get soft capped with an arp trinket you should do it (ex. change 4 gems to arp to hit the 735 soft cap for mjolnir). If you can get over 800 passive arp without gems (very easy to do with an avid togc 25 raider or next tuesday when the second wing of ICC comes out) you should make the change to do it. You made a mention that there are a lot of movement fights, can you name one? Beasts you don’t move, Jaraxxus you don’t move, Faction you do move, Twins you barely move, anub you are stationary for the only part of the fight that matters. A disengage on marrowgar, possibly a kite on deathwhisper, gunship is irrelevant, and no movement on saufang.

  47. Nick says:

    Just like arp stacking pre nerf(ulduar content), as well as arp stacking during ZA and Hyjal when it didn’t have a percentage. The top hunters will do it because it is best. It’s as simple as that.

  48. Frostheim says:

    Nick – it sounds like you may be basing your math on pre-nerf armor pen stats (if not I’d love to see it, because your results seem to be radically different). At 350 armor pen, arcane shot will do substantially more damage than steady shot, and unless you’re soft-capping, hunters will do more damage from agility gemming than armor pen gemming. Furthermore the top hunter dps in the world comes from agility gemming (Kripparian) and the Ensidia hunter argues that agil gemming and armor pen stacking are about the same.

    Marrowgar has significant movement requirements. Lady D basically none. Gunship is significant movemnent, and on Saurfang most raids have their hunters kite the bloodbeasts, meaning they’ll be moving for about 50% of the fight.

  49. Nick says:

    You should look at Kripparrian again sir. He is full armor pen hardcapped gemming armor pen. He increased his dps on every parse since he made the change. At 350 arp steady shot will not do more than arcane, however arcane shot cannot proc piercing shots, nor can arcane shot proc improved steady shot. The damage gains from more piercing shots and more imp steady shot procs (ie, Harder Chimeras as well as better mana return in 10 mans) will make up for the small damage difference between arcane and steady shot at/around 350 arp.

    Marrowgar also has almost zero movement requirements, a strafe to avoid flames and a disengage to avoid ww. One of those which will not even cause you to lose an auto shot if strafed properly. Any raid that has their hunters kite bloodbeasts is crazy as well. They can be zerged so easily with zero kiting. The only movement is dropping a trap with a disengage back into position. As far as gunship goes, the only time dps is ever important (which even at this point its not) is when your killing the caster at which point your 100% standing still.

  50. Bunba says:

    hey. i am a hunter with 7500 dps in 25 man raid. i have 296 armor p from gear. nothing gems with arp. i use agility gems and AP gems. i still do high dps i have some randoms gems. not going for just one gem. so could i get more dps if i’ll go ARP gems?

  51. Nick says:

    http://www.femaledwarf.com will answer your question bunba

  52. Pulzar says:

    hey im on the server darkmoon faire and i was wondering what to stack in, im currently stacked in agility but think i have pretty good gear and maybe could try the arm pen gems. im currently surv spec entertaining the thought of becoming MM and going arm pen stack. was wondering what would be the best and if i would see a dps increase if i did change spec and go arm pen. i think i am pretty well geared and alot of the loot in ICC is Arm Pen heavy. heres the link to my armoury http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Darkmoon+Faire&n=Pulzar would you check that out and tell me what you think, im currently hitting about 5-6k 10 man 6-7k 25man. what could i do to improve that as i think for my gear i could be hitting alot more

    thanks Pulzar

  53. Jagerd of Dunemaul says:

    So, in order of importance:
    Hit Cap
    Haste Cap
    Agility
    ?

  54. Frostheim says:

    Haste cap is not a priority. It’s a bit more important for armor pen builds, but in general you aren’t going after it. Your importance is hit cap > agility > the rest depends on your spec and your gear.

  55. Darbac says:

    Ok, i have a question. Im normally a survival hunter. But i just got the new bow from 25 Deathwhisper, and with the particular set of items i have on, I have 600 Arp and I have the needle from FoS. It shows on a previous chart that im about 120 from Soft cap. Would it be best for me to switch out a few gems to get to soft cap Arp or stay stay Agi. As it is, I am using the rotation CS, AS, St, St, St, St. very simple, but it blows my surv out the water. I want to max out whatever dps im doing, even if it makes me regem

  56. Nonas says:

    As far as i am concerned Arp>Ag. I dont need any more theory, math formulas or small talk issues that go around this subject. All the proof i need to see is: dmg in raiding, dummies testing, and MM agility users behind. Ofc if u r a low level hunter or if dont top gear, u should go for agility. http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Hellscream&n=Nonas

  57. Hagar says:

    I am a marksmen hunter with basic agility gems and some atk power and 5543gs. I was out dpsed by an armor pen hunter in icc25 by quite a bit. His gearscore was only like 5200-5300 and still had way better dps. As of rite now my armor pen is at 580 and I do have one armor pen trinket proc I don’t use — I’m thinkin it would make sense to switch to the armor pen build — but how much should my raw armor pen be? (b4 procs)

    Thanks,
    Hagar of Lothar

  58. Hagar says:

    ok, I respeced to armor pen and I have a raw armor pen of 700 (at the sacrafice of some, not all agi and atk power gems) — now armor pen is 1378 with trinket proc… that seems like its close enuff to cap? when procced enemy armos is reduced close to 99%… So far ran a 25voa and dps seemed higher… it makes more sense to use the 232 crit/armor pen trinket over the 245 clicky atk power triumph badge one with hit rating since my hit is capped without it, thoughts?

  59. Cirnellé says:

    Well, i read like all of the posts above and was thinking about which specc would be the best for ICC. Spreadsheet is based on kinda dummy-fight so if you know a little about the stats and the game mechanics you can guess that hard-capped ArmP MM will beat SV easily but spreadsheet fails when it comes to ICC. At the first wing of ICC hard-capped ArmP MM would do fine, only disadvantage is putting a trap and using disengage, that will lower your DPS a bit but should be okay. When it comes to second wing, only fight that HC ArmP MM would pwn is Festergut. Rotface -> BS ( Like Tomatoe said CowCrap ) Professor Putricide -> BS. Those fights requires too much moving and you barely got time to shoot some auto-shots. As far as i know, the upcoming boss fights would be like run + avoid + jump + type Lol + shoot something + keep running. So… I think HC ArmP MM hunters would fail. To be honest, i’ve respecced to SV again from HC ArmP like a week ago and my rank at meters slightly increased. I’m always at top 3 now even though having some 6k gs overpowered rogues in the guild.

    @ Frostheim, stacking till 1400 is simply unnecessary because sunders don’t work like you guess/think. For example, duel a warrior and ask them to sunder you, when you check your character status you’ll see that your armor value’s color becomes to red, that mean’s it’s lowered from it’s usual amount and lowered by a percentage. Think about it like that -> A random spell is ignoring 10% armor of the target. Our target’s normal armor is 10.000 and with that spell it’s now 9.000/10.000. If you have 100% armor ignore, you’ll keep ignoring 10.000 armor and it’s waste of gems. And if i have to explain in a much more simple way, think abou that: Me and one of my friends is playing a video game about shooting some ducks down. His weapon shoots down 2 ducks per round and mine shoots all of the available ducks at once but costs like 10x more then a gun that can shoot down 8x ducks at once. Why should i pay 10x more money for that gun?

    So… if you have a trusted warrior tank with 100% attendance or some warriors that knows how sunder is useful, get exactly 80% armor ignore, then you’re hard-capped.

    Cheers,
    Cirnellé – Sylvanas EU

  60. Cirnellé says:

    - Sorry about some grammer & typing mistakes, it’s 7:00 am here and haven’t slept yet, qq.

  61. Frostheim says:

    Armor reduction does not stack additively, it stacks muliplicatively. An example: opponent has 10 armor. Sunder armor reduced it by 20%. Opponent now has 8 armor. You have 80% armor pen, (reducing by *up to* 80%), assuming you get the full 80%, opponent now has 1.6 armor. You always need 100% to reduce armor 100%, because other armor debuffs do NOT stack additively. Also, you’ll never really get the full 100% because of how it works, that’s why they say “up to” :)

    Movement: if you are skilled at movement management, ArP builds are excellent. If you “barely got time to shoot some auto shots” on rotface, then you just aren’t great at managing your movement (which is fine, most hunters are not). Currently in ICC Saurfang and Gunship are not good for ArP builds. Marrowgar, Festergut, and Rotface are excellent for ArP builds. (and I have not yet fought Putricide or Crimson Halls, so I just don’t know on those yet).

    Again to use your Rotface example: I will lose maybe 1 steady shot and 1 auto shot when I have the Mutating Infection — and sometimes none at all. The combination of jump-disengage and stutter movement can allow you to keep most of your physical damage shots if you’re very aware of the fight and planning exactly what to do when. (note I do not stack armor pen, but you always want to manage your movement well).

    I recommend reading our armor pen build discussion for more details: http://www.warcrafthuntersunion.com/2010/01/mm-hunter-armor-pen-build/

  62. Froste says:

    quick question frostheim, any movies of you managing your movement well? id like to see it in action, and probably so does alot of other readers of your fine site :)

  63. Joseph says:

    All I have to say is KRIPPARRIAN on Ysondre server who is one of the best dps hunters in wow (check his you tube videos) is totally head to toe gemmed with armor penetration on his mm hunter. but he does have the deathbringers will trinket which adds 155 arpen
    so the question is do all you mm hunters have the balls to gem all armpen and get rid of all agility gems? cause its an all or nothing deal. You cant move around alot

  64. Hagar says:

    ok so still I have the question…is my soft capped armor pen (rite now at 720) enough or does it have to be hard capped to take advantage of the armor pen build? Or should it be somewhr in the middle??

  65. Hagar says:

    ok the hell with it… I couldnt rely on the proc to hit the cap so I respecced back to agility since I have the new deaths verdict and whispering fang skull trinkets

  66. mario says:

    ok guys, I ve reached hard cap on arm penetration(1387) and god damn u all tanks, pls do your job properly and hold the mighty mm aggro…..

  67. Joseph says:

    Guys its offical if your a MM hunter and have gear with armor pen ( the high end gear)
    Then armor penetration is the way to gem all your gear hands down..i was all agility mm and since i gemmed all armor pen my dps shot up 1000 im at 4700 hitting dummie unbuffed with cat pet. i was lucky to hit 4k with everything procing and criting on agility gemmed. GO ARMOR PENETRATION!

  68. Rakunvar says:

    Wasnt sure if this was said or not but figured i’d give my two cents. From testing, reading etc Agi is usually ALWAYS the best choice period. EXCEPT, now the gear thats coming out, the proc trinkets like Deaths verdict, Deathbringers will etc. most end/end game hunters Surv and MM are switching to ARP gems mainly because to the fact that AGI loses alot of its bonus due to us hitting a Crit cap with procs etc. Again this is only really high raiding gear basically.

  69. Frostheim says:

    Very few hunters will ever need to worry about the crit cap of 104.8%, especially MM hunters. Full crit cap details are here: http://www.warcrafthuntersunion.com/2009/01/hunter-crit-cap-guide/

  70. bobbz says:

    i have 450 armpen UNBUFFED and was considering turning all 22 of my gems into armpen gems which would put me near 1000 arm pen. I was wondering if this was a good idea?

  71. Ryan says:

    Looks like the admin here is trying to tell people that armor pen isn’t better from the way he/she plays his/her hunter, How about putting this into thought. Everyone has a different connection and a different play style, you cannot tell someone what to gem for when you have to take a few things into mind. Also when MM, if you have the wasp pet (which is another 5% armor pen, and stacks with sunder but not with druids faerie fire) it is yet another way to hit the armor pen cap. You need to take things into perspective not just the way you want or think that it should be played. It is all based on play style and previous experience, as well as connection and group make ups.

  72. Frostheim says:

    Incorrect. I suggest re-reading the article — it’s not about play style and precious experience, it’s about facts and data. As the article says, armor pen surpasses agility based MM builds *if* you have enough armor pen rating.

    Also, a wasp will not help you reach the ArP cap — the cap is completely independent of debuffs (debuffs are applied first, then your ArP is applied).

  73. Ryan says:

    Well since I have got the extra gold to spend, I decided to re-gem all my armor pen gems for +20 agility, And it seems my DPS was 341.4 lower than my average DPS with full armor pen gems. ( I went into 10m ToC with my guild and we did the first part of Northrend beasts with each gem, I did not switch to the Kobolds ). This proves that “Facts and Data” are not always correct, You can’t put the armor pen numbers in as well as you think you can put in the agility numbers. Please, try it out yourself.

  74. Frostheim says:

    Of course facts are correct :P

    Note that your dps difference was *below* the statistical variability for such an uncontrolled test. In other words, based on that data, you have no idea which is higher or lower, even though you were fighting in a way that favored your ArP build.

  75. Beachum says:

    I plan on switching to arp when the time comes, but im not sure if i should buy the 264 frost gloves for the arp and mabye the belt, or buy the t10 shoulder and gloves for the (2) set bonus?

  76. Ulk says:

    I have a MM hunter that has soocketed everything with arp.
    I have 604 arp and 1542 agi at the moment.
    I also have the trinket “Needle-Encrusted Scorpion” it has a change on hit to increase arp by 678 for 10 sec.
    I am thinking about resocketing agi..
    If I resocket agi it will give me 384 arp and 1762 agi.

  77. Ulk says:

    Is it worth it??

  78. Hadi says:

    Hey Frostheim I just wanna thank you for everything man, it’s rly great posts everywhere.
    But I do have a question:
    We’re 3 hunters in guild, and the 2 others are speccing MM and stacking ArP, but I don’t wanna do that too, it would be rly boring :S
    So I wanna stay survival and I’d like to know what numbers should I be aiming for exactly for a maximum dps (how much haste and ArP mostly since they’re the main trade-off).
    I am currently at something like 450 haste, 400ArP, 52% crit, 6200AP, 7% hit (alliance)

  79. Crapple says:

    Oddly enough, I haven’t really seen my situation represented here as I would hope to. I have a WoW Heroes score of 2920, Agility~1772, ArP~600, AttackP~4900 (no hawk or trueshot), hit capped, and out of 17 gems only 4 are agi, the others are attack, crit, a haste, some combos, etc. I have the ArP trinket from FoS, and still have another 25 crit to get from head/shoulder enchants because mine aren’t the best i can get. I am efficient in my movements and spec’d into imp arcane as well. when the planets align, i can pull 8k in a 25man raid. Where do i go from here? (Engineering enchants also if it makes a dif)

  80. Crapple says:

    Oh, speaking of Engineering enchants, my haste is sitting at 227 right now, steady shot is at 1.63 cool down or something like that, and my gloves have boost of 340 haste enchant. 7/57/7 spec with imp arcane instead of the pushback reduction and hit chance boost.

  81. Ell says:

    Well, thank you very much for explaining that Arp issue quite clearly for everyone, only thing i need to complain is what you said about BM needing to stack AP. AP is the second stat for BM still actually, 1 AGI = 2 AP so unless it would be a bid difference like 30 agi (60AP) compared to 100 AP, its best to go for Agi, plus this also adds .05crit rating. the AP from Agi transfers to pets all the same.
    But otherwise, great points =)

  82. Kozel says:

    Thanks m8 really helpful guide , its all clear to me now!
    i ll defo stick with agility cause most of icc bosses requires me to move a lot
    and also cant manage movement :D

    Ty again , u just saved me like 1,5k-2k G for 17 sockets..was about to start gemming ArP

  83. Sixpack says:

    im an MM hunter that was gemed agility and then i got deathbringers will. well i stayed agility until i went into a voa and got smoked by another MM hunter with about the same gear by 1200dps. i did around 7800dps and the other hunter did 9k. that is a lot, and im a good hunter and manage movement well. so i made up my mind and went and spent ~2kg and regemmed ArP. I dont use a trinket with an ArP proc and i have almost 1000 ArP rating which gives me 68.5% passive ArP. my average dps on Koralon (which for me is a good test dummy) went from an average of 7600-7800 to 8400-8600. this is after 3 Koralon kills with ArP and a lot of Koralon kills with agility. IMO it was worth evey cent of the 2k gold.

  84. Name (required) says:

    Hey Sixpack,
    I’m survival and I did 10.2k dps on koralon without hero, I’ve been competing with MM hunters (ArP capped) with the same gear and they’re doing better than me on non-moving fights, but on a lot of fights that require moving I’m still owning them. Ex: Rotface: 9.5k dps, MM was at like 9k – Putricide: 8.2k dps, MM was way behind – Blood Queen: I got owned.
    I don’t wanna jump into conclusion, but I don’t think that the MM hunter should be able to beat u by 1200dps on koralon if ur gear is close. You may have been going for the wrong stats as survival.
    Also. what was ur gear like? Can you give me an estimate of ur gearscore for example? I mean the lower the gear, the smaller should the gap between survival and MM be.

  85. Brôken says:

    Hey, i’m a hunter in full ICC 10 / 25 gear and honestly this discussion is throwing me through hoops. I understand the article entirely but the big thing wracking my brain is the trinket. I have 722 armor pen (lots of gems) plus a Needle-encrusted Scorpion that puts me around capped, is this the same as just having enough ArP? Or should I regem Agi and use a different trinket until the article’s stipulations apply (800 ArP)?
    This is a problem for me because i just got 4 or 5 more 25ICC upgrades in the past week and they almost all lowered my Armor Pen. Please help me understand whether or not the trinket / and or ArP gems are worth it to bootleg the softcap. I just don’t know how much the trinket really helps if you have to gem a lot for the trinket to cap you.
    ~Brôken from the US server Sargeras~
    If you need to find me on Armory to see my gear just copy paste the name to cover the crazy ô heh, or Alt + 0244.

  86. Threesixteen says:

    please define “highest level” of gear?

    i think that this is where it can get confusing as i find personally gear is a continuum, not an end destination. my arpen stats fluctuate greatly as i incorporate new gear; from as high as passive 700 to a recent low of 500. and i have 2 pieces of t10 as well. the trouble is the 251/264 frost gear tends to be “slow” and depending on which gear you swap out, your arpen can vanish immediately.

    the truth as far as i can tell with over 3 years of MM, BM, and Surv specs under my belt is that you should play what you like to play, and trust that you play it well.

    victory is all that matters.

  87. paasnaas says:

    Lo,

    i started gemming for Ar. pen. the last weeks and i must say with fairly good gear i do much more DPS on arp then with Agility. (have around 1070 arpen with foodbuff)
    It’s not that hard with frost emblem item and some low lvl trinkets to achieve 1k+ arpen.
    The only thing i noticed is that my crit value dropped from 55% to 49/50% which has to do with the lower agility.

    I must say that when u only able to play in icc10 and not in icc 25, like for me is the case, cause our guild is too small, the “normal” frost emblem items give u a big amount of arpen. I even think that the 245 LW chest is better then the T10 chest.
    SO i decided to go for 2 T10 items (shoulders and Head) and the rest just normal frost emblem items. I also bought the 2 LW ICC items (legs and boots) Normally when in Voa10 or Voa 25 i do 7k+ dps which normally puts me in top3 DPS in recount.
    In ICC10 the dps is a bit lower due to more movement but still top of my guild with values around 5-6.5k dps on bosses.

    So in my case i can only recommend the arpen build. I chose for the normal frost emblem items, since ICC25 will not be possible with our guild for a long time i guess.

    Hope people can benefit from these experiences.

    Paasnaas
    Shattered Halls EU

  88. Hagar of Lothar says:

    I went back to the armor pen build again….that makes the 4th time I’ve re-gemmed from agi to armor pen back to agi then back to armor pen. I gave up a few tier peices that I bought in order to incorporate lower item lvl peices with armor pen (to keep agi high, with high armor pen)

    I now also repspecced MM to include Focused Aim so I dont have to worry about having hit rating all the way up. Now have about 700armor pen + FoS trinket. My guild made me incorporate the armor pen b/c they said my dps should have been way better for my gear — they were right.

    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Lothar&cn=Hagar

  89. Schmevan says:

    shoot+scoot=little dps loss in armorpen build to movement :P

  90. samiam says:

    i waited til i hit 802 passive, then went for it, i put +20 ArP gems and my 3 +34 ArP gems in everything except for the meta, 1 nightmare tear and 1 puissant dreadstone to activate the 21 crit rating and 3% crit meta; my gearscore is 3170 something on wow-heroes, so i am fairly decently geared. i was very worried about it because i lost 510 agility and my unbuffed crit went from 62% to 50%, but my ArP is now 1239 without ArP food, 1279 with, of course; but like i said, still very nervous about losing all that wonderful agility and crit. Hit ICC 25 tonight for the first time since. I am happy to report that it was a success. There is another hunter in our raid who is overall usually right with me, we were always very close, he did beat me on some fights simply because he refuses to kill bone spikes, etc., he feels like it is everyone elses job, but i digress. Tonight i blasted him, was a full % or 2 over him on most fights, gunship being the largest exception, he beat me, but i had to jump into a cannon for a little and im blaming that :). i beat him on all other boss fights and destroyed everyone with a staggering 12K, almost, dps on the dragon before the gunship. i was also doing 25K on large AoE fights, werd. Not trying to brag, just wanted to say that if you wait til you can get it high enough to really matter, it will make a difference you will be proud of, or at least it did for me.

  91. proactivplus says:

    my hunter has a gs 6042 my arp is 497 ,im full 264 gear should i put arp in stead of agi, i hit in 25 icc around 8.5k with the agi gems,if i change to arp gems will it make my dps higher.

  92. rawr says:

    yes it will, tenfolds

  93. samiam says:

    I’d say no, wait til you can get your passive to around 800, like the guide says. Swap out gear, hopefully yuou didnt toss all your old gear. I’m using a few 251 pieces, they might have less agi or whatever, but the say +50 ArP offsets it. Get your passive up first or you will be disappointed

  94. Robert says:

    hi

    i would like to have ur opinion on my hunter plz have a look and tell me what u think i could do to improve my self plz…..http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Hellfire&cn=Nadjirz
    thx on forhand
    u can contact me by mail and that is brutolia@live.se or i com bk here :)

  95. Beachum says:

    sorry if this is a repost, but should we just go for the 264 non tier legs/gloves, and just go with 3 t10 pieces( helm,chest,shoulders, since there sanct versions give more ArP)? or go with 4 t 10 pieces ( helm, chest, shoulders, and gloves)?

  96. ozzie says:

    Can some one who has tried arp on raid say that this is realy helpfull?

  97. Chacha says:

    Last night in an ICC25 guild run+some pugs (lacking ppl atm) another hunter saunters up and asks me why I haven’t gemmed for ArP… my response was wanting to toss her skanky little butt off the gunship we were waiting around on, but, biting my tongue, I said that I just preferred my agi as I still used my secondary spec (SV) on the Saurfang fight for our 10man raid team as it’s what we need to survive the encounter. She then goes on to tell me that higher dps is better than anything else… *twitch twitch… snap* … may I stress “for the good of the raid”? And I like my agility! Yes, she was about 700dps above me on the one fight that we bothered to link but at that point in time (as in every pug that gets on your nerves) cba to even care. I’m doing my job and I know it. Is it so wrong to not want to be like every other hunter out there? And yes I want to be the best I can be for my raid team, but is sacrificing my huntery-happiness going to make things so much more wonderful that it pays off in the end? :(

  98. hammer_hit says:

    1295 ArP, 1400 with elixir (65Arp with Alchemy bonus) and food.
    132 Hit
    55% Crit
    5k AP

    Buff me up, put a drainy in my group and all is right with world.

  99. supabeef says:

    I need help, I was a survival hunter with anywhere between 4000 and 5000 dps. I went into a 25 man VoA yesterday and was spanked by a lower GS MM ArP hunter. I decided to switch out and try MM ArP, well now im 2000 to 3500 dps and I spent everything i have on regemming and such. Can someone check me out and tell me what im doing wrong. I am beginning to think that switching to MM was a huge mistake. supabeef vek’nilash

  100. bored says:

    Your gear is not there yet (800 ArPen is before gemming – should hit at least 1000 ArPen after gemming); however it should not drop your DPS by that much.

    My guess is you just need to be familiar with MM rotation, and manage your movements much better. Get a dual spec and put Surv as our 2nd spec. I use MM in fights where i dont have to move or change target (saurfang / Fester) and Surv on highly mobile fights with lots of adds. As the article clearly said – ArPen MM is only better at very high end gear.

  101. Muna says:

    AoE damage as volley will be very bad btw with ArP maxed, but it´s not that big of deal, just that you won´t be the top 3 in ICC at the begining. Had 1050 passive ArP with gems but still agi gemmed does bit more, so you should get the icc25 trinket before changing gems and/or be JC/Alchemist.

  102. Mathiaas says:

    I am just a little confused. When Cataclysm starts what will be the best thing to do for BM hunters? Simply stack agility?

  103. Trollejbus says:

    Searching net for hours… i was lucky to stumble upon ur post, tx for saving lots of my time :))

  104. Rivenelf says:

    Ok, so now I’m confused about something: Why would Survival spec be considered the more “mobile” spec when the Sniper Training talent increases damage based on how long you stay still? One of the things I loved most about changing to MM was that I could move around as needed and not worry about losing that damage buff.

  105. Optogirl says:

    Please Help!!! I am very confused…as a BM, should i gem for agility, AP, or ArP????????

  106. Dridzz says:

    Thnx for the great info on ArP and Agi.

    Could someone plz have a look at my toon. I’m a SV Hunter with alot of Hit (without trying to stack) and a very low ArP rating though I keep getting Agi and Crit gems. Plz tell me what to do to increase overall dps. My toon is on Arathor.

    Thnx again for the great work.

  107. Skeetshooter says:

    I know it says updated for patch 3.3. I’m still wondering what specifically the amount of passive ArP is that you should hit before you gem it (I’m tired of spending all this gold regemming back and forth)

  108. Kaeya says:

    Seen so many hunters stacking arp, before hitting the 800 soft cap and told them to read this post first, now they need to go back to agi, Thanks for the clear post. And for the great articles, i learn a lot about my class every time i come here.

  109. MCcritalot says:

    Dridzz
    u dont need ArP as survival keep gemming agility

  110. Buxir says:

    Im so confused over this arp vs agil gem.

    my stats right now un-buffet
    agil 2199
    power 5469
    arp 768
    crit 57,99

    fully agil gemmet , and cant deside what to do, stay agil or gem arp.
    Mostly because im not the best at controling my moment at bosses hehe

    can also be found on armory by my post name if you need to see other stats

  111. Kalee says:

    Okay so, ArP is only being considered for auto-shot and steady shot. Why not consider kill shot and aim shot(miss the old school aim shot)? Kill shot is all physical so is the aim shot. With my messily 5200ish GS I am popping off kill shots that crit for 10k, I do realize that it is only usable under 20% but with the glyph the cool down is shortened and MM has the capability of clearing the cool down instantly. I use mainly Serpent Sting, Chimera Shot, Steady Shot, Aim Shot, and Kill Shot(arcane shot shares a cooldown so I have that set aside out of the rotation and didn’t realize that silencing shot had damage associated with it until now been strictly using it for pvp and silencing mobs; I’ll be adding that in.) I understand that AP is important to serpent sting which in tern has an effect on the damage of the chimera, But when I had gemmed all agi I was doing a little less damage and with all ArP with one prismatic my dps increased. Auto shot, aim shot, steady shot out number the magic damage of chimera, serpent and silence shot. The main thing I have a problem seeing is that auto shot is going all the time, just like serpent is, and then a focus on steady shots with rapid fire also speeding up auto shot which is all physical hitting for 4-7k at my iLvL like I said before you can reset all the cool downs while you are MM so you can basically do that over again combined with heroism enough said tons of physical damage being put out. Please point out where my misconceptions are, I have been playing this game since it first came out with the occasional breaks I came back when the arp hard cap reached 1400.

  112. Kalee says:

    I just realize I use arcane shot all the time, but still physical damage seems to be more of the damage that MM use.

  113. I dont know says:

    Okey, So Armor Pen sucks? Hmm, the best hunter i World Of Warcraft use Armor pen not in all slots, but still the best hunter sucks? Hmmm, thats new

  114. Alan says:

    I have a SV hunter and his pretty geared with a 5878 gs. So is it better stack agility or armor pen now and should i keep my agility enchants on put some other ones on????

  115. Kornholioq says:

    fools, bunch of huntards..

  116. Deiol says:

    So many people don’t properly read the article, Frostheim hasn’t said ArP sucks, he’s stated with facts that Agi is better to gem *Unless* you have a certain amount of passive ArP from your gear, i tried a little testing on my own hunter, tested SV spec with Agi gems, MM with Agi and MM with ArP, MM with ArP was fairly less than with Agi however another hunter in my guild who has more ArP than me had increased dps with ArP gems, from results i got Frostheim is completely right, read first before you start moaning about something..

    Btw Frostheim, keep up the good work! :D

  117. Dragones says:

    Hay Guys
    Id like some help please.
    I currently have a hunter with 96% arp reduction with the 4 set bonus.
    If i use the Two set bonus with other gear namly vendour 264 gear from frost emblems i get 100% arp reduction.

    What id like to know is would it be worth sacrificing the second bonus from my tier for 100% arp or stay at the 96% with the bonus
    All the arp is passive without any trinket procs

    Thanx :)

  118. pheonix says:

    I am currently at 1278 armor pen…should i switch out some gems and go for agility or stay armor pen? thanks

  119. ambev - frostmane says:

    you should get another 122 armor pen and achieve hard cap of 1400.

  120. ambev - frostmane says:

    @buxir
    You are slightly short of the recommended 800 passive ArP to switch, plus the fact that you say you have trouble on movement intensive fights, I would stick to agility.

    @dragones
    you should just buy the peices you need for 100% ArP and test the difference, but off the top of my head I’d say its so minor you will hardly notice.
    http://www.warcrafthuntersunion.com/2009/03/how-to-measure-dps/

  121. Aztec says:

    Hmm, so… for BM hunter isnt better trinket with ArP (Grimm Toll) but AP (Mirror of Truth), because BM used often Arcane shot….

  122. Zeelazen says:

    hi – first off great blog / website. :)

    My problem:

    I’m getting pushed a tad by guildies to swap all of my Ag gems to ArmPen or go Survival.

    We have a talented young guy (Linkhunter / Bloodhoof) that swears it’s better for me even tho my gear has me at a ArmPen GEAR rating of 540 / 38.58%. His testing (originally on the Grand Master dummy) was only marginally better (400-500 dps) then what I was putting out, once I pointed out the Heroic dummy and got him to switch, I really wasn’t too much more impressed, I mean maybe a jump of say 800-1000k dps would be worth regemming at a cost of 1200g+ on my server. (He didn’t pop Rapid Fire / Readiness from what I could tell)

    As I am currently geared / gemmed:

    I can sustain 10-12k (Rapid Fire / Readiness) in most fights if I am positioned correctly or stutter step, on fights were I am forced out of my comfort zone – I still manage 8500-9k dps and usually stay between the 1 and 2 spot in 10man and never drop lower the 6th / 7th in a 25man if I am getting beat up pretty bad.

    I’ve really invested a lot of time and energy in maximizing the gear I have, sure I’d love to have BiS or all 264 stuff but I typically get outbid in GDKP’s so I’m hovering at 5.8gs.

    So what do you recommend? These guys seem to think they have to all figured out and pretty much scoff at you guys, Elitest Jerks and what the WoW Hunter forums say on this subject. Apparently Linkhunter is the best on our server (Bloodhoof) and swears that if I go all ArmPen gems or just switch to Survival I would see a big increase.

    Again, no offense to my guildies – they are all pretty awesome, it’s just what they say and what the world (internet) says are completely 180 of each other.

    Thanks much!

  123. LivingDeadLaura says:

    Some kind advice please!
    My hunter has always been on the back burner when it comes to my other toons and now I want to get her updated and somewhat decent. I’m in BM currently but do have a MM spec..My gear is low so i’m wondering if i should stick with agi and wait for better gear? Maybe add a little AP for my pet’s sake? Her dps is running pretty low. I hear all kinds of different things from different people, so i have no idea what to do with her, although i’m pretty sure i shouldn’t be stacking ArP right now. ANY advice is appreciated!
    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Scilla&cn=Nightrae