I like to fight with Arust.
And by fight, I don’t mean the physical brawling kind (he’s an elf, what chance would he have) but the argument kind. Disagreeing with Arust is a delightful thing because we both believe in science, which settles all disagreements with either facts or logical, evidence-supported theories.
For example, when we were discussing the best MM talent build, I disagreed with a talent that Arust left out. Next time he was over at my place we talked about its relative merits with me taking the stance that it was better than any alternative, and him taking the stance that it sucked. We quickly determined what the best alternative talents were, how to measure the effects of each (via theorycrafting) and then what would be an effective way to test it in game.
We then each conducted the test under the same conditions, compared results, and agreed on which was best. Because science told us so. It didn’t matter what our original positions were, because we could use logic to determine which answer was right.
What a wonderful way to solve a disagreement!
If you think this is a valid way of settling a disagreement, you are by far in the minority of the world. For most people arguments are made emotionally, not with logic, reason, and rational thought. In fact, studies show that most people determine their conclusion first, and then find a reason to support their conclusion afterward. It’s the whole deceptive allure of “gut feeling” or instinct. I promise you that evolution did not select for instinct of highest dps talents. For most people, winning the argument is more important than actually being right.
I sometimes brush on this point with my non-WoW playing Roomate, who refers to me as a robot with no emotions. A common conversation will go something like this:
Roomate: “…and then she walked out of the theater and missed the show she had spent $150 to see.”
Frost: “That makes no sense. She made herself miserable and she ended up missing the show. That was stupid.”
Roomate: “You wouldn’t understand, honey. It has to do with feelings.”
Frost: “It was still illogical.”
Roomate: “Well most people have these things called emotions, and they can’t control what they feel.”
Frost: “Sure, you can’t control what you feel. But you can control what you do. You aren’t an idiot for feeling sad, but you sure as hell are an idiot if you smash up your $5k fancy vase because you’re sad. Do you see the difference?”
Roomate: (patting Frost’s arm gently, understandingly) “You’d understand if you had emotions.”
But the thing is, I really don’t understand. I don’t understand why someone would do something patently against their self interest just because they were angry, or sad, or happy, or anything. I don’t understand why someone would stick to an argument for which they have no supporting evidence (other than gut feeling) and ignore reason despite every bit of evidence you can muster.
A good WoW example of this is the pervasive rumor that there is a Hunter crit cap at 35%, or 42%, or 45%. It isn’t true, there’s no evidence for it, there’s tons of evidence against it (some of which I posted in the Crit Cap Guide) and yet people still want to argue. They suggest that the testing methodology that got a 96% crit chance might just be an exception, and the cap still exists in other scenarios – even though they have no evidence whatsoever that a crit cap exists. They just heard it someplace and won’t let it go.
Anyhow, I digress.
The point is that, elf or no, if Arust takes a stance he probably has science to back him up. And if science turns against his stance, then he is capable of acknowledging facts and changing his stance. After all, winning the argument is not important. The facts are important. Because facts and science are what lead us to the top of the dps meters

FACT: The average man thinks more logically than the average woman. Granted there are some genius women and some idiot men, who don’t fit the bill. Hence why I said average. I agree with you frost, I have feelings but I am not a slave to them, and you never told us what the extra point was in!
So, what were the disputed talent builds and what was the end result of testing? Which build came out on top of the other thus settling the debate?
Enough with the emotional talk, let’s get down to what matters here!
Extremely well put.
Dunno if I’d agree that men are more logical than women; however, I’d be happy to look at your data if you’ve got a link to the study that determined this!
Arust and I went back and forth on a lot of stuff in the MM build. The disputed talents in this case was going for Wild Quiver + 1 other talent vs. Aspect Mastery.
“You’d understand if you had emotions.” haha!
Well put indeed! This post was a very tactful way of telling ppl to go pound sand with their ridiculous comments to your best build, best glyph posts. I’m sick of reading comments by ppl who think because they happened to do good in some raid or beat some dude in a fricking duel that they are master theory crafters. For future commenter’s out there, if you haven’t spent hours upon hours hitting the target dummy or spent thousands of gold on re-speccing and glyphs and arrows, sorry Frost, bullets, then STFU. No one’s saying you can’t disagree with Frost’s conclusions just bring data to back up what you claim! Period. If you have a valid point I’m sure Frost will test it out and change his blog if you’re right.
BTW – Love your blog homie
Your roommate sounds awesome. Love the blog, keep it up
Apparently you never see red, Frost. You’d make a terrible warrior.
Here Here , sometimes its hard for certain people to admit there wrong even if the evidence is right under nose or on the table, some people are just to stubborn and set in there ways to look at stuff from different angles to.I love what your doing here Frost its helped me greatly and i appreciate all the time you put into it and i am now really starting to learning all the facts behind what you do to. Keep up the good work buddy!!!.
OMG — talk about opening the can of worms … but here I go.
A Question for Frost:
“Have you any science to back up the position that “Logical” is better than “Emotional” ?”
There is science showing that both logic and emotion are adaptive and “pay their dues” in an evolutionary and societal progression arena.
You may argue that WoW is a “mathematically based gamed” and thus logic should dictate your actions in game – but the one example of naked blood elves dancing on mail boxes and begging successfully for gold would go a certain way to defeating that.
Even when it comes to choosing talent specs the role of emotions plays a part – in many cases through play style, but also as an adaptive way of arriving at solutions faster than through rigorous analysis.
Now don’t get me wrong — you know I’m a “scientist” & acolyte of logic – but I have had the notion that logic is king, beaten out of me by a rather erudite scientist I happened to marry and who studies emotion. Of course to convince me that logic was not always best, she employed logic … oh the irony.
A logical, or scientific solution is testable, verifiable, repeatable, and falsifiable.
An emotional decision making process is faster. Sometimes it will come up with the right solution, sometimes not, with the frequency of right answers depending on the person. However, intuitively coming up with the wrong answer “feels” the same as coming up with the right answer. And the process inherently rejects a logical argument against it, through cognitive dissonance.
Studies have shows that most people will change their arguments and rationale to support a decision that’s already been made. (Favorite study: they had people write a paragraph is support of an arbitrary position on a fake issue. A week later, they presented people with the same issue and asked them which position they felt was right. The overwhelming majority came up with reasons to support the decision that they were randomly assigned to a week earlier).
Some decision making processes, like WoW talents, etc. should be made clearly on logic. Some should obviously involve emotion (like who should I marry) – but even those decisions should involve logic and reason. Otherwise you end up with the “yes he uses drugs and deals drugs and smashes up my apartment, but I looove him!”
I agree that emotion is adaptive and helps us to make decisions (though it’s often a few thousand years behind the curve) but never as consistently well as logic and reason. It is, after all, only logical.
A $5,000.00 VASE!!!..It must be Ming Dynasty. My wife would break my head before she would break that vase.
Frost you would make a good Vulcan.
and i support your idea, as I tend to be the same way.
“But I looove him!” Hit the nail on the head. The male equivalent is “But she IS hot…”