I recently discovered that I’m spending WAY more gold than I’m making, between consumables and constant respeccing. The only solution is to make more gold. However, I despise farming, grinding, and questing. So I figure I’ll just make money by playing the Auction House.
This post isn’t about making money, it’s about paying dues. But it’ll take a minute to get there. Bear with me.
Back in BC I got the Auctioneer addon and played the AH. It was great. I’d spend about five minutes when I logged on and five minutes before logging off doing my AH stuff, and kept careful records of everything I spent and made. I averaged about 150g per day, which kept me in consumables and kept the money growing. Eventually I quit doing it ’cause I had enough gold, and at that point why even waste the 10 minutes.
So recently I reinstalled Auctioneer and have been collecting AH data in preparation for entering the market in a week or so. In the meantime, I figured I read up a bit on the Greedy Goblin blog. This guy essentially plays the game primarily to make money on the AH, and he does it very very well. I was looking for tips, and found many articles fascinating reads. Especially the ones that had nothing to do with making money.
The Goblin Philosophy
It’s fascinating to see Greedy Goblin apply the same money-making business principles to raiding. And interestingly while I agree with all the business philosophies, I disagree completely when applied to raids. Here are some examples:
- Topping the damage meters is bad. If you’re on top of the damage meters, that means you are putting in more work (though time or gear or gems or consumables) than the other dpsers, yet you are getting the identical rewards (in terms of chance to get loot). Why would you pay more for the same reward?
- Getting the best gem/enchant is bad. He argues, and I agree, that the very best gear isn’t needed, if there is enough skill. The gear upgrades buy you a safety margin for if things go wrong. He then calculates the cost of the safety margin (in repair costs) vs. the cost of the gem/enchant/consumable/upgrade. He argues that generally the blue gem isn’t worth the huge cost jump over the green gem. You’re better off wiping a few times. (Personally I think his calculations are wrong here — he doesn’t count enough wipes, nor does he account for the time (15min often) that each wipe costs, in terms of gold).
- You should aim for dps that is good enough - 2k dps on patch 10-man is all you need. After all, if all dpsers do 2k dps, he will go down. So by staying at 2k dps with equal chance at the loot, you are getting the best investment/reward ratio.
The WHU Philosophy: Pay Yer Dues
I think the business way of looking at gear and raids is interesting, but inherently flawed. The WHU philosophy is to pay yer dues. That means you do everything you can to perform your role as best as possible. If you can increase your damage by 1dps, then you do what it takes to increase your damage by 1dps. But let’s take a look at exactly why for a moment.
We go to raids because it’s fun. Otherwise we wouldn’t pay for our WoW subscription. But let’s be honest here, it’s not raids themselves that are fun — it’s beating raids. Killing bosses. Making progress. Maybe you like it for the challenge, and maybe you like it for the loot. Probably you like both.
Once you’ve established your goal is to kill bosses, it’s a short path to maximizing your ability to kill the bosses. To some extent, you may have control over who you bring with you to the raid. But to a greater extent, you’re probably raiding with who you’re raiding with – you’re stuck with them. You can try to educate them, you can try to help them, you can try to beat the stupid out of them. But at the end of the day, the only thing you have complete control over is you.
You can read the strats and learn the fights. You can optimize your talent build. You can learn and practice your shot cycle until it’s intuitive. You can get the best gear, the best enchant, the best ammo, the best food, the best gems and do every damned thing possible to make the raid a success.
Because when it comes down to it, it doesn’t really matter if you’re carrying lazy people. You want to get the boss kill, so you do what’s necessary to get the boss kill. Even if that means hauling more than your share. Even if that means spending more money on gear than the cost of the wipes.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m bitter about dpsers that are 2-3k dps below me on the meters. But it’s not going to make me slack off. Because if I don’t do everything I can to optimize my dps and help the team get the boss kill, then I’d be one of them.
I don’t approve of the notion of “good enough.” If you’re carrying your weight, good enough, and someone else isn’t carrying theirs — then you don’t get the kill either when you wipe. And keep in mind you aren’t just fighting the boss you’re on — you continually improving for the boss that is going to be harder yet.
Just for clarity, I love Greedy Goblin’s site and I find these kinds of posts interesting and thought-provoking. But the desire of a dpser to top the damage meter isn’t just flexing nuts.
For many it’s about maintaining their spot in the raid – if you have 35 ppl wanting to raid, the raid leaders are going to choose the 25 best, even if the other 10 are technically good enough (and I get emails from people in these situations pretty regularly.) It’s about compensating for mistakes (that we all make) and the occasional death that puts that dps burden on other shoulders, it’s about always prepping for a harder boss, and it’s about pride in doing your job as best you can.

Hi there Frostheim! I’ve been reading your blog since I returned from my 1year brake of WOW. I also play has an hunter, troll to be more precise. I love the way you do your blog because you give lots of tips to your fellow hunters but not going through a pro-hardcore approuch.
I 100% agree with your latest post. I’m in a very numerous guild in wich only one 25man run is usually up, wich means lots of competition, If I slack I don’t get a chance to raid, and I’m only about PvE in this game. So I try to do the utmost to get good results. I’m poorly geared (Only Heroics and 10man geared) compared to the other hunters so I do my best every raid. Last night I was invited to go to Ulduar25 to down Ignis and XT. I managed to do 3900 on that boss, just 200 DPS below the most geared hunter. On XT, on our best try, I did a bit less DPS (3573) but did better then our main hunter. I’m Finally seeing my efforts paying off and I thank you (and Euripides blog) for helping in my return to the game!
Hope your blog lives long since I find it so amusing to read! Best of luck, Iba – Troll hunter from Xavius (EU).
I absolutely am on your side regarding the philosophy, Frost. Even though it really pisses me off when other hunter in a pug, who doesnt use the flask, doesnt eat buff food unless being given some and then he wins the roll for Leggings of Failed escape, Arrowsong or Helm of the Grave
This, combined with “Why should I” response makes me /fart at these.
Well, we hunters, are damage dealers and the only measurable output of our job is DPS so imho we should do our best to top the meters (unles being assigned specifical tasks, of course)
Cheers, DFE
I really agree. I think it is fun when my dps is in top and I want it to be as high as possible, it’s a game in itself. I have very little gear from raid drops since I only do pugs and had a couple of months break in January and February. But after reading up on this site my dps is almost always in the top 5. Often even 1 or 2. I see it as part of the game to beat other’s dps. I don’t really care about what others in a raid do. But if dps is too low, and you can see that early, I just leave if we don’t replace those who are too low. Many who do lower dps has gotten gear I need, I just try not to think about it.
Been a reader for a little while now and this is my first post. I totally agree with this. I do not mind people being lower DPS if I know then and know what they are trying or capable of, but I also push them to make themselves better. With advise from this site, I have made myself into the top 3 DPS’ers of our guild. I appreciate all you do for us who do not have the time nor the WoW “smarts” to figure it all out. Because of this site, I keep pushing myself. I see Frost putting out 4K DPS and it gives me something to shoot for.
I say, “If you aren’t doing your best, then why are you playing?” If you aren’t going to put everything into it, then why take gear away from those who are. It’s just silly. On a side note, as a casual AH player I took a look at the Greedy Goblin and its seems kinda, well… like this guy is in his first year of business school. Like, he thinks he knows what Adam Smith wrote about, but has never actually read Adam Smith. But it is possible that the poor grammar and word selection is just throwing me. Anyway… I’ll keep shooting Mammoth Cutters and hoping that setting the example pays off.
Fantastic post right here. I’ve never not been #1 in our little guild’s 10man runs, because I really try to be #1. It’s a goal.
It can definitely be a little discouraging to see impossibly low DPS numbers (1500 on Loatheb? Really?) from DPS classes, but you have to hope for improvement there. With my own numbers, I can actively work towards improvement.
Note on Greedy Goblin: I believe that English is not his first language, so we can forgive the occasional grammer or word usage error.
Man I hope that is an old screenshot frost.
Yeah Yori, it’s an old recycled one. I do better these days
I was more worried about what warriors might be which
Killin’ the meters is about the most fun thing I do. What is in-game money if not a means to an end? For some, that end is mounts and other “flare” the game provides. For others, it’s wasting bosses in raids. I can’t understand money for money’s sake though. I just feel bad for tanks and heals. Despite some recount numbers thrown their way, they can’t point to it and say “there, b*tches. That’s what I can do.”
Still 2nd in my guild overall, though, unfortunately, though I have the best single-fight dps record on Patchwerk (absurdly stupid crit run a few weeks ago). Tops is another hunter at least, and better geared. So I can’t feel too bad about it.
i believe whole heartedly in paying dues, answering first to myself. i know if im doing my best, and if im not, i first let me down. this keeps my standards higher. it has nothing to do with other people. i fix me first.
the only thing i have a hard time doing is spending grossly disproportionate amounts of gold on minute upgrades. for example, the +85 ap to a 2H verses the +110 to a 2H. grossly disproportionate. same with gems that are like 12 hit verses 16 hit or whatever. on my server, the difference can be over 1o0 gold in the 2. 4 gold for 12 hit, or 120 gold for 16 hit (ONLY because its blue). thats selling items based on aesthetic, and i still see it as fiscal responsibility, which is just as much part of paying dues to me. i find other ways to get some of the best enchants and what not, but i have a line and as of yet, cant manage to stomach some of it.
Well said Frost. I knew I liked your blog for a reason. And thanks for the ArPen guide, with the new changes it was helpful in understanding how it works. I’m still waiting on your MM guide (since MM and SV are now very close according to the theorycrafters at EJ.) A write up on hunter trinkets might also be helpful to many, as I have not been able to locate one anywhere. Thanks for your great work and keep it up.
Like you said Frost about being as good as you can despire what others do. My DPS may never get near yours but I don’t make excuses even my AFKness which is probley why my DPS is down sometimes I always try as hard as I can be it a pug Heroic or a 25 man I could say I have to chase mobs which does suck for melee DPS but off topic, I have always tried to do the best I could do. “good enough” was never an issue if I sucked then I was trying my best but still sucked but I never held back on purpose just because I felt others were behind and I know the Greedy Goblin isn’t saying that as an overall strat just a gold making strat but if your willing to do it making gold then who knows what someone will do other times bottomline to me “Good enough” is only cheating yourself and making yourself look bad there is no advantage to it other then to look like an elitist…….afk
I can’t bring myself to get +10 stats to my chest piece. Even when I got my t7.5 chest. I just can’t. +8 for like 1/10 the cost is all I think I’ll ever do. Paying dues has its limits.
I usually never slack with consumables and I always try my best, but just like Arthemystia said, I can’t bring myself to get the +10 Stats enchant either. I also have Black Ice equipped at the moment, with “only” 85AP, since the DPS gain from getting Massacre is, in my opinion, not that significant. I have Journey’s End waiting in my bags to see some serious gear setuping, but since our guild might have a shot at General on tuesday, I won’t even touch the staff before we see the loot.
…then again I’m saving money for the huge DPS buff from DMG.
You guys need to get some friends who are enchanters. I bet if you make a pact to feed them greens for DE, they will happily enchant your stuff for free.
Isn’t a hunter designed for DPS in the VOA raid in Wintergrasp the raid leader said he would boot anyone under 2000 dps as they need performers not slackers or free riders. I can see your point its about trying to make your character the best he can be so you can get invites and people will ask for next time. See i am in a spot right now were i pretty set to start heroics in Northend however the rest of party needs work so now i end up posting alot in chat look for group as i want to get better gear which equals more DPS. You can never have to much DPS