Blue post says:

Just to clarify, we have no plans to nerf Survival. We would like to solve some of Marks’ mana problems, though some predictions remain that Marks will overtake Survival with the best possible gear. BM is probably a little behind, which is something we also want to address.

This was a very nice post to see, because there was speculation that SV was looking at yet another explosive shot nerf. This is what I think is happening:

As players get better and better gear in the game, including Ulduar 25 gear, and then Ulduar 25 hardmode gear, the balance of classes is changing. Not too long ago Ghostcrawler actually posted on the forums that they were keeping an eye on hunter dps thinking that it might be too low across the board!

Overall, hunters do not scale as well with gear as many other classes do (however we scale great with buffs!). The result is that at the lower end of the gear totem-pole, hunters rock out on damage, but on the higher end, the other classes start to pass us by. Now MM hunters, on the other hand, scale a bit better than BM or SV do. And I do think that in Ulduar 25 gear we’re going to see the MM hunters passing SV by. Heck, even with my naxx gear when I’m testing MM builds I find my MM damage just about identical to my SV damage. The only differences are within the range of RNG randomness (however my consistent stomping of Arust’s dps in raids leads me to feel SV is certainly on top, at least for our gear level).

Now mana is a huge problem for MM — but if blizz addresses that without hurting their dps, then I think we may see a swing in the MM direction.

Beast Mastry? Oh yeah, you’re still screwed.

I think that BM hunters scale the worst with gear, because their pet doesn’t scale well with their gear. Thus back in the day when BM was legitimately broken, the appearance of how broken they were was exaggerated by the hunter gear scaling. We all had crummy gear, but great buffs, so seemed way on top of other classes. They then nerfed BM, as they should have, but nerfed ‘em to the frickin ground. Soon after as people got better and better gear BM fell farther and farther behind the dps curve. They did a slight un-nerf, but BM is still pretty sad compared to the alternatives.

So my prediction is that they leave SV more or less alone. They give MM another buff to mana regen, though the cynical part of me fears they will do it as an additional talent so that we have to choose between more dps or more mana regen. And BM will get a boost, but not big enough to put them in the top tier.

Then in patch 3.3 they’ll have to buff hunters again, as we continue to fall behind in the gear curve.

But fear not — for the time being we can still top the meters!

Facebook Twitter Email Snailmail
  1. dangphat says:

    i know it has been commented on before but hunters, mages, locks and even rogues should be top of the dps chart because we dont have the versatility of other classes. I still think that DKs still need a slight nerf on dps, and maybe their tanking abilities could be reduced slightly (because at the moment their damage mitigation makes them the only choice for some fights).
    If they do want to nerf survival so it only affects people in low gear rather than everyone they could move focused aim further up the MM tree, that way low geared svl hunters will have to gem every slot with hit gems reducing their dps. It wont affect top end dps as the ulduar gear has sufficient hit on it anyway.

  2. Vael says:

    Interesting tidbit about our DPS not scaling as well as we progress further and further on…is that quantifiable or just a “gut feeling?” It certainly echoes what I’ve been suspicious about – I think its the Ulduar HUNTER GEAR that needs the upgrade, not our play mechanics!
    I’m about ready to dual spec to MM just so that *someone* in our raid can have Trueshot Aura going…Five Survival Hunters in my 25 run on Friday is kind of cringe-worthy, and if Marks can stand on its own better, might be worth the coppers to take it (altho I’d have to stop mocking all of my Hybrid buddies about my money savings, lol)

  3. Frostheim says:

    Vael: you need to register for the site, darnit!

    Yes, it’s quantifiable. In fact, when patch 3.0 came out many of the theorycrafters were complaining that there was scaling issues. Blizz responded not to worry because they were making major hunter changes in patch 3.1 before it became an issue. They scrapped a lot of their planned changes, and it’s still an issue.

    Keep in mind that the TSA 10% AP buff does not stack with other classes that offer the same buff!

  4. Kent says:

    If the issue of gear not scaling well for the pet is an issue, why not have gear for the pet? Personally I’d love to have an additional gear slot (or slots) that could be items, or trinkets that could be used for my pet.

    Also wouldn’t most professions love being able to craft some additional items for all the hunters out there?

    I think it’s an interesting idea anyway.

  5. Yorigrim says:

    Yeah, putting gear on pets would be nice, it’d remind me of playing dota and running as syllabear. That bear kicked ass when you geared it up!

  6. Frostheim says:

    Yeah, I long for pet gear. Here were my collar suggestions from a post back in December: http://www.warcrafthuntersunion.com/2008/12/pet-collar/

  7. Yorigrim says:

    Hah, nice, I guess that is before I started reading regularly, I don’t remember that.

  8. Erbodie says:

    MM might come back from its dps lagging/mana hog position, but I would question the utility aspect of that spec. Now that we hunters end up having to cc or kite stuff in Ulduar, I welcome having 3 points in Trap Mastery (to increase Black Arrow’s damage) and 1 point in Scattered Shots (these few seconds of Daze end up saving healers). Even if MM ends up being better from a dps standpoint, I would miss these useful tools.

  9. Bandwarm says:

    lol pet collars..i wish
    Also kudos on the whole site registration thing – it’s great to be able to see where people have recently commented etc :)

  10. arthemystia says:

    I won’t spec to MM until they fix mana regen. for it. But I’m looking forward to when they do.

    But yeah, they need to do more for pets. I’m currently trying to turn my off-spec into a full pet-tanking spec, dps be damned. And it’s hard. Too hard. And even with optimum glyphs, gems, rotation, gear, pet, etc. I still doubt I’ll pull it off.

  11. Myrliandre says:

    Urgh .. so much I could say …

    1. One key issue (IMHO) is that not all stats tranfer to pets — notably Arm Pen and Haste — most Ulduar mail gear is carrying these stats — hence pets are not scaling withthe gear very much. for BM when the pet damage can be as high as 50% of total damage contributed — this is terrible.

    2. Switching from BM -> MM in my current gear represents 500-800 DPS increase. That’s just way too big a difference between specs to claim they are both viable. I am close to the point where I have to swallow my staunch love for BM and spec SV because MMs amana issues and BMs just plain lack of oomph has got to the point where I think I’m not carrying my weight in raids, and I can no longer convinve myself the solution is “just around the corner.”

    3. A got a gun – http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45261 – this has nothing to do with the discussion, but I haven’t had a chance to link it to Frost and gloat in game, so I thought I’d take my shots here.

  12. Yorigrim says:

    It’s a purdy gun. I was drooling :)

  13. Ord says:

    Yeah, it’s pretty much Best in Slot for rogues, I think. Can’t wait until I get one :P

  14. arthemystia says:

    Armor pen. IS more important now, as I hurdled my guild’s other hunter for the first time ever for #1 on the meters in ulduar today because he has better gear overall but considerably less armor pen. But yeah, a shame it doesn’t scale to pets at all. Almost makes straight attack power seem more enticing than things like crit. or agility. Almost.

  15. Stonefather says:

    As a mage i suffered the early power, crap scaling throughout BC and I burned out on being a mage. With Arcane as a dead spec with brief periods of broken stupidity on PTRs, nerfed into oblivion before the patches went live, and the theoretical optimal dps spec (which was still well below warlock/rogue/hunter) being a spec which required 2 shadow priests in the same group to have a hope of meeting the required mana, I see many similarities with the state of hunters atm . I can say they’ve been much quicker to fix balance issues in 3.0 in general, but I have a lot of sympathy for those sticking it out with little to no hope of a happy end in sight.
    I am now a very contented DK tank. My name is Stonefather, and I’m a switcher.

  16. David says:

    You mentioned that TrueShot Aura does not stack with other classes that offer the same buff – which buffs were you referring to specifically??

  17. Zyrinx says:

    I find I no longer miss BM, despite playing it for several years pre-3.0.8. I try it now, occasionally, as a 2nd spec and I find it both underpowered and uninteresting. I do sort of miss Loque, though :-/

    Great news about SV, though, glad to see that.

  18. Shyrak says:

    Enjoying SV thanks to your advice mate, but have you looked at the latest news about the ranged weapon buffs on high and weapons? Woot!

  19. Deepfriedegg says:

    @ David:
    the first one is enh. shammy´s Unleashed rage, the second one is blood DK´s Abomination might. There is a slight difference between these two and TSA, though. TSA is guaranteed to be always on. Unleashed Rage procs from crits (100% chance to proc) and lasts 10 secs. Abomination Might procs from Obliterate (100%), Blood strike (50%) and Heart Strike (50%) and also lasts 10 secs. There might be a chance that a melee has to run and this buff isnt up for a short period of time.

  20. Tsailencer says:

    Thinking about the opening statement in blue, and I’m wondering with all the high end gear going ar. pen. heavy, would switching all my gems to ar. pen. be a better idea then staying with the agi. gems?…as of right now I’m a SV hunter with jewelcrafting and 95% of my gem slots are +agi … also, is the ar. pen more viable for MM hunters than SV hunters? just wondering.

    Tsailencer (Antiquus Morte Ortus, Silvermoon)

  21. Vascilli says:

    I noticed a mana drop with my gladiator gear since the last patch, (about 200). Did the PVE gear have an intellect drop also?
    I usually just play BG’s and do quests, hence the gear. I changed from MM to SV when I found this site. Thanks to you guys I get asked to run 5 mans and am 1st or 2nd on the Damage. THANK YOU!!

  22. Frostheim says:

    For SV hunters, Agil is still better than armor pen. Keep your agility gems!