So you may have noticed that I’ve been pretty silent about actual PTR testing for patch 3.1, though I’ve certainly been reporting various changes as they come up. The reason is that the PTR is always changing, and even more so they usually have a few last second changes that they slip in when the patch goes live. So it’s hard to say something that doesn’t end up being totally wrong by the time it goes live.
Of course I have been testing on the PTR – very often in fact. I can’t keep myself away. I just don’t want to go on record as saying that BM is back on top (btw, they’re not) only to have a crucial nerf hit at the last second. As a former BM hunter, I don’t want to see your heart’s crushed yet again.
However, since we’re getting close to the release, and since I’m getting so many emails about it, here is what I’m seeing on the PTR.
Frost’s PTR Test Results and Random Observations
Beast Mastry
From all of my testing, BM hunters have the fewest changes. Of course the pet talents got a major make-over. Frankly, I love the new pet talent structure. It give you actual choices (rather than just take everything).
However, when all is said and done, BM was still by a significant margin the lowest dps build that I tested – and I tested a couple different ways, including with big red pet up as much as possible. (Note: I used a Devilsaur for testing BM, and did not do a comparison test of different pets).
Marksman
Now Marksman got a lot more interesting.
The change to Piercing Shot was probably the most interesting one for me; however, I could not test it well. Every target dummy on the PTR always had dozen of people on it, so they were always at 1 health. For whatever reason, the bleed of piercing shots only ticks for 1 damage against a target with 1 health (won’t overkill).
I tested more builds with MM than any other spec, ’cause there were just so many choices. At the times of my testing, the best MM build was actually one that didn’t use multi-shot/aimed shot at all! This is fascinating because that make the rotation hugely easier, and insanely mana efficient. The idea is to make maximum use of Improved Steady Shot to boost your arcane/chimera damage and get the mana return on them.
At the times of my testing runs, MM was actually measuring either comparable to SV, or a bit ahead of SV (though see caveats below).
Survival
Survival got a whole lot harder. I mean, seriously more complicated. All of this is due to one reason.
Black Arrow is the new spell that make SV run. Your Lock & Load procs off of this now (which means it procs less often) however, your damage across the board is better while Black Arrow is up. It’s yet another cooldown to keep track of, and if you’re trying to maintain your Immolation Trap dots, you start to feel a bit like a Warlock. I generally found it best to fire Black Arrow at the beginning of my second rotation — thus giving all my proc-based stuff a chance to get up to steam before putting the damage increase dot on. Thereafter I put it up whenever possible (though I like to refresh Serpent Sting first so that I’m not wasting a GCD on a dot while Black Arrow is up).
Here’s the full description of the current version of Black Arrow:
See that little bit about sharing a cooldown with traps? They just added that one in, the sneaky bastards!
The Sniper Training nerf sucks even more than I thought. Overall SV was either comparable with MM, or slightly below MM dps.
Glyphs
There are some very interesting Glyph changes in patch 3.1 and, equally importantly, changes in patch 3.1 that will make me re-evaluate glyphs. I have been deliberately holding off on writing a Glyph guide for the WHU specifically because I know the advice is going to change in patch 3.1. I’m still not sure exactly where the best dps lies, and I’m not going to devote too much brainpower to it until it’s all finalized and live.
However, here are my observations:
- Explosive Shot glyph looks awesome for SV, with +4% to explosive crit. Note that SV will be losing 9% explosive shot crit with the changeup to the T.N.T. talent (now gives 2/4/6% damage boost to explosive/black arrow)
- Immolation Trap glyph is maybe going to be interesting (DoT is 6 sec shorter, but double the damage). There’s been a lot of talk of having explosive shot refresh the Immolation dot (which in turn can proc Lock & Load). If that actually happens, then this glyph looks nice.
- Kill Shot. Reducing the cooldown of Kill Shot by 6 seconds. So that means from 15 sec to 9 sec. I think Ulduar is going to make this really sexy. Once Ulduar hits, we should be looking at boss fights that last a lot longer. That means the boss will be below 20% health for a much longer amount of time – maybe as much as a minute! With a shot that can crit for over 13k per shot, being able to shoot it that much more often could be a real dps boost to boss fights — and a boost at the time when you need it most!
Testing Caveats
Sure sure, it’s all PTR it could all change. But there’s more. I was unable to ever get a target dummy to myself, regardless of the time of day. There were always dozens of people there. So I was not just measuring my dps — who knows what all debuffs were on the target. Another hunter’s mark that was better than mine perhaps? Sunder armor, almost certainly. Expose weakness? Other weird shit that I don’t pay attention to? Yeah, probably all of them.
So I don’t want to compare live dps to test realm dps. Sure, I could tell you that my SV build dps was higher on the test realm than on live, but that doesn’t mean it really was. It may have been lower, but just got boosted by all the debuffs. So I can’t really tell if the net effect on SV was a nerf or not. However, it does seem like the net effect on MM was a buff.
Conclusions:
BM: cooler pet stuff, still the suck at dps. I’m okay with that (they are, after all, the best leveling/soloing spec)
MM: big dps boost, either neck & neck or above SV.
SV: lots harder to play, dps comparable or below MM.
So right now I’m predicting a massive movement from SV to MM. Doesn’t even matter really where the best dps lies – it’s close enough and MM will be so much easier to play than SV that people who can’t handle SV will think that MM is better dps. And, in fact, in may well be the case. (MM also has the best aoe damage!).
Argh…
I’ll patiently await more test results. Or I’ll download the test client, either way, thanks for the insight and info!
Golgat from Maelstrom
Would you say BMs are still viable in raids under the present PTR conditions?
Assuming they don’t bring a bear to a dino fight, that is.
Oh, and I’m claiming the same exception for Shandy as Gnolldeath gets. She’s gone lava swimming in MC enough to earn it.
That’s fair. Isn’t Shandy from EQ as well? They both have as much history to expand multiple games and memories.
why do god/blizzard hate us hunters and keep changing us all the time´but anyway.
and gj , keep the good work going
when you are finish can you upload it to the net i mean your specc or link and explain about it like u always do ?
Woot woot!
)
Looking forward to your live results…I’ve already started prepping my friends that my DPS will most likely go thru a transition period post-Patch. (while in my head I’m thinking “Heh, until those fabulous guys at WHU tell me what to do.”
Thank god for you guys…I’m in agreement blizzard makes it really hard to be a hunter, with all the changes all the time!!!
If you guys really want to QQ, play a mage. Frostheim tells me its all I ever do.
well i like mm so i hope it comes out viable. i think it would be cool if we had two neck and neck specs. have some variety with hunters and still be raid worthy.
i remember seeing in the early notes something called trap launcher. my heart stopped. i havent seen it since tho /cry
im just happy to get my bag slot back.
Very nice MM here we come… i might stay SV… maybe its like racing games… yea automatic is easy but you go faster in manual…. lets find out… woot
What are you plans frost?
So BM still Worst??
Bm need buffs…
Blizz has said that the trap launcher is unlikely to happen in 3.1.
My plans? I’m a dps whore. I’ll do testing on the final live builds and go with whichever is the best raid dps. Also, I’m predicting that we have a last minute buff of some sort for BM, to at least put them closer.
Frostheim can you post the MM build you thought was the best in the test realm. I know it may change after the 3.1 releases but was just wondering.
I’m really *not* okay with BM being so far behind. I love(d) the spec, and the increased soloability means exactly zippo at level 80.
I hope it gets a buff at the end. It’s really gotten basically no attention at all in 3.1 thus far, unless you count the “Boost -> Nerf back to baseline” workflow as attention.
I’ll be extremely happy if MM is the top damage spec, or at least comparable as the top DPS spec.
My hunter was my first WoW character, and I picked him because I wanted to shoot things. I wanted to shoot things extremely hard, extremely accurately, and from long range. I wasn’t thinking about the pet being a big deal at the time.
I leveled 1-70 as MM, but then switched to BM at 70 for raids/heroics. (Ah, the fun of being in LFG as a MM hunter. So much rejection) But I hadn’t intended to make a hunter so I could spam Steady Shot and have my pet do ~40% of my DPS. And I had to stable my faithful wolf for a cat (and then Devilsaur) to keep my DPS up.
I was BM to level through WotLK, but jumped ship to SV once I hit 80. Sniper Training and Explosive shot were the kinda things I envisioned doing when I first created the hunter. Big shots, long range, top of the DPS charts. I hate trap-dancing though. (I fully admit I’m not good at it, but it doesn’t fit my conception of what my hunter should be doing anyways, running in and out of range like that.)
I’m happy with SV now, and I think I’d still be happy once 3.1 rolls around.
But if MM could be the top DPS spec AND I can go back to my wolf with the pet ability changes?
I’d be a very happy hunter.
Perhaps dual-spec will be the answer we search for…
Golgat from Maelstrom
Dual-spec may be *an* answer, but I’d like for all 3 specs of hunter to bring something special to the table during raids. I RP a fair bit as Axe, and beast mastery is just “him.”
Besides, he’s starting to enjoy his 2-headed fuzzy white Puppy-O-Death.
And Shandy says “grar,” which means “Thanks for remembering, Hrist!”
… I think. She doesn’t enunciate too well, except when she asks for those Halas 10 lb meat pies. She’s pretty particular about her food. Gotta watch that fat white arse o’ hers, I guess.
Ok, ok, so the two new things i expected the most aren’t happening. I see trap launcher as a must for new SV functionality (maybe it could be an SV talent?) to keep L&L dot up, and at least the ammo stacking is huge and i can throw away the pouch (though it seems you have to buy bullets in 200u stacks). I wanted a BM -solo- and SV -raid- dual-spec, but i think i’ll wait till Frost does his magicmathical things to decide.
Just keep us informed and enjoying this blog, m8!
Landa. A-N Europe.
Hey Frost, you would’nt happen to know if the spirit beast as an exotic got a lil boost in DPS by any chance ? I know they were going to base spirit stike on our Hit rating and not on spell power so that it hit more and missed less but apparently the change seems insignificant. I was hoping the change would ahve pulled the spirit beast up to par with the devilsaur and over the standard pets. After all BM’s aren’t getting much more than some new pet talents. However boosting the talents is a wrong way of dealin with a pet that isn’t functioning the way it should.
And I was holding out for Ulduar to be the saviour of BM! Alas, sounds like not to be… /sniff
I may finally have to give in and turn to the dark arts of SV!
btw – are you saying that MM is the new ‘spam-steady-ftw’ spec? I thought that was why they nerfed BM in the first place as it was seen as easy-mode and they wanted to reward the other specs which have a more dificult shot rotation… if MM has an easy rotation (admittedly a little harder than just steady) that seems contradictory…
And if it is, why would anyone now go SV?
MM is not that easy, it’s more of a priority based: steady, arcane, chimera. But we’ll see what ends up working out on live. Multi/aimed may get back in there. Or maybe SV will be reimbursed for their newfound hardness (hmm, did that sound dirty?).
Why would anyone now go SV? *IF* MM is easier and better, they won’t. Just like how BM was both best and easiest everyone went there.
“the best MM build was actually one that didn’t use multi-shot/aimed shot at all!”
This I find most intresting. Been hearing on forums that MM speccs give 45% crit chance to Aimed, and thus should be needed in alla MM speccs. But I’m more likley to hear the true story from you.
Great job, Frost. Will be looking forward for next update from your adventures on the PTR.
Happy hunting!
ive stated somewhere here that MM felt like a utility belt to me, with silencing shot, aimed shot, , the various chimera effects, trueshot aura and so on. it had some nice raid utility.
i kinda wish they would give something to all trees that could be brought to raids. im with axe, they all should be able to come to the table and compete. choosing a spec should be about play style and preference, not the fact one spec/tree completely out performs another. i imagine spec balancing is a very difficult thing for blizz to do, but just seems to me that one specific spec being THE raid spec is detrimental.
im honestly trying to give myself a practical reason to shell out 1000g to get dual spec. id love to do a dual raiding spec i could switch between depending on the need of the raid IF the trees offered various raid benefits.
They did get something to all trees: BM has ferocious inspiration to increase everyone’s damage; MM has Trueshot Aura; SV has hunting party for mana regen.
The problem is that the Pally mana regen is 20 times better than SV. And the pally damage increase thingy overwrites ferocious inspiration. So blame the pallies.
Personally, I’m dual speccing so I can have a Pet Tank spec!!!
I still can’t help feeling we’re still going to be left with only one spec option for raiding, whether that’s SV or MM, one of them will end up being the cookie cutter and everyone will feel forced to go that spec like they do SV now… So in other words, this patch is another complete failure for hunters as it won’t rebalance specs or open up different options… Major qq I know, but just how I feel
/disallusioned.
My long hours (at least 13 of them) in front of the Heroic Test Dummy (Or, Holey, as I have come to know him) has netted the same results posted here.
MM seems to pull ahead slightly of SV. I have tried both Arc shot and Aimed builds. They were both close but Aimed edged out Arc slightly.
Bm pets now do some great damage. And the burst they can do is a welcome sight. But, a BM Hunters personal DPS is still lacking and is what is putting BM so far below the other 2 trees. I too can live with this, as I prefer BM for grinding anyways. And I think I could see some PvP possibilities in BM. If nothing else I guarantee the enemy wont be ignoring your pet anymore.
I completely agree that SV has become overly complicated. Im am very confused about what Blizz is trying to accomplish with this tree. I think when 3.1 goes live, and Hunters see that MM is doing as much if not more damage then SV, we will start seeing a shift to MM…
Actualy the top dps for MM seams to be a shot rotation with no arcane and aimed up. I got to test on the Darn dummies many times since no one ever goes to Darn and putting aimed which procs Piercing shots ends up being the top spec I didnt go with aimed glyph for ease of rotation but may change that in the future.
Glyphs were TSA, Steady and Serpent sting (which will be even more important when you get 2 piece t8)
Spec was
Beast Mastery (7 points)
5/5 Improved Aspect of the Hawk
2/2 Focused Fire
Marksmanship (57 points)
5/5 Lethal Shots
3/3 Careful Aim
3/3 Improved Hunter’s Mark
5/5 Mortal Shots
1/2 Go for the Throat
1/1 Aimed Shot
1/2 Rapid Killing
3/3 Improved Stings
1/1 Readiness
3/3 Barrage
2/2 Combat Experience
3/3 Ranged Weapon Specialization
3/3 Piercing Shots
1/1 Trueshot Aura
3/3 Improved Barrage
5/5 Master Marksman
2/2 Rapid Recuperation
3/3 Wild Quiver
3/3 Improved Steady Shot
5/5 Marked for Death
1/1 Chimera Shot
Survival (7 points)
5/5 Improved Tracking
2/2 Survival Instincts
http://ptr.wowhead.com/?talent=cxbZ0eAokhzGIsghAox00b
Reason for no aimed glyph others seamed more important and this alows you to run a very simple rotation of chimera aimed steady and always makes chimera get the imp steady proc no matter what. Also in raids with sunder armor up and mangle this spec would have a massive jump. One note is thought that you want to be geming for agi and most crit possible since the bleed is baised off of crits.
Everyone seems to claim (and justified it is..) that the BM hunter puts out less DPS than the others and that the pets of a BM hunter do excellent damage.
Well thats the whole idea behind the tree, the skill comes in successfully keeping your pet alive and focused on order for it to do the damage needed… Knowing when to pop “heart of phoenix..” and when to just simply revive pet. I know in an instance if I loose my pet, i’ll be doin as much DPS as the tank if not less lol.. so it’s not a simple send pet in to attack and wait till it goes down. It’s also a know how to pull it out n heal or revive
Daragh,
No one would argue that the mechanics of BM should not be that way. The problem lies in the fact that even if you can keep your pet alive, and keep it and yourself doing maximum damage you will still be behind both other specs. And behind most other DPS in a raid.
Bm is a tricky tree to balance. It would be easy to make it “OP”. As we saw in TBC……
I would argue that keeping your pet alive in many boss fights is far harder than dealing with the slightly more complicated shot rotation of SV/MM, and so should have justifiably higher DPS…
BM may be gimped a bit, but in comparison to to other hunters in my guild who are geared comparative to me (one BM, one MM – pre Naxx gear), minus the pets, DPS is on the level in dungeon/raid situations. Maybe it’s a build flaw on their part…? My build, 51/17/0, dump GFTT and increase to DPS w/ AimedS and Imp ArcaneS. I never use my pet in dungeons/raids, unless its the MT/OT or an emergency (CC), while still enjoying the 9k crits. Personally, I’ve played MM (till 70) and I’m glad I do less DPS. Not being on the top of the DPS list allows me to anticipate the wipe, pop FD and dodge the 30g repair bill. Just saying. Morrdant – Azuremyst
(I realize the talent points are off, couldn’t remember the total number and I’m at work and can’t access the Armory, but you get the idea…)
MG: Um…. you’re a BM hunter who never uses his pet in dungeons or raids…? You’re glad you do less dps?
I’m not sure what to say to that, other than you’ll maybe not appreciate, well, everything we do here at the WHU
haha thank you Frost for pointing that out.. I’m still pondering what groups would take a BM hunter that does not use their pet, probably does less damage then the tank, and is okay with that? But hey, he doesn’t wipe the raid, and if the raid does die – he can FD and get the hell out! (by raid, i’m sure he means heroics – not too many 10/25mans would keep him long enough)
hey guys, curious question:
for SV, how do you feel about Resourcefulness since it affects Black Arrow (assuming it stays that way). Lowering mana cost by 60% and CD by 6 sec seems nice, especially if viewed as a SV dump talent.
what do you think?
Anyone else go oom quicker now in SV?? I noticed the proc from ES doesn’t count towards judgement of the wise… thats a big /tear for me since I run with paladin friends. I really love how SV is working with blackarrow, even if its another step. Oh how would I love to have a macro to do blackarrow/Ssting w/out castsequence. Any suggestions to doing blackarrow without another key binding?? I’m out of keys with doing SV spec. Any serious hunter try MM spec?? I really want to give SV a good try before making the change.
Btw get resourcefulness, the 6 sec CD to blackarrow is almost a must for increased dps. Sucks since I don’t see myself doing many traps, other then AOE pulls on trash.
Chat it up people, please!
-Nuku – Scilla
Love your site. Great information, and excellent insights. I’m currently playing a Taurn Hunter on Vek’nilash, that is SV specced with BM offspec. I find that SV gives me slightly higher edge on overall DPS, but I’m still leveling up my new exotic pets (T-rex and Rhino). My other pets include Cat/Bear – Eagle (just for something differnent).
Just wanted to say thanks for your awesome posts.
Why does everybody talk about how SV is hard? I find it easier than mm