So, patch day. 3.0.9, the un-nerf.
I get home, log in, run to Ironforge and the target dummies that I’m starting to develop pet names for. I’m there a lot.
I re-tested my SV dps, just to make sure I had totally fresh numbers. Then with equal parts anticipation and fear – do I want to go back to BM, or do I prefer SV? – I respecced back to the good ‘ol badass Frostheim BM spec. I pulled Nibbles out of the stable and practically had to hold him back from eating every face he saw. He was ready. I was ready. The target dummy, who I’ve named Chris, was ready.
The results kinda surprised me, I do have to say.
I was running between 2800 and 3100 dps in SV spec, self buffed, just shooting until I was OOM.
In BM spec I was running 2400 – 2600 dps.
I gotta say, I was expecting better. I was honestly expecting something like equality. I double checked my talents, my spells, my pet’s spells. I confirmed that I wasn’t doing anything stupid in my shot rotation: serpent sting, arcane, steady steady steady. BM is just still crushed by SV.
On the target dummy, at least.
We’ll know for sure on Saturday, on 25-man raid night. We have a badass die-hard BM hunter who’s gear is similar to mine. We’ll see how we compare on Patchwerk. Raid buffs do not scale all builds equivalently… and maybe I had a latency spike I didn’t notice while BM… it could happen, right?
So anyway, at this point I have to report that SV is still crushing BM on the meters.
Carry on.
Well….I can`t wait for my tests.Still have to wait till 11.
Got a new gun for those 2nite,and just after Kel` kicked a buckett we have visited Malygos……
and omg…….i was ripping aggro from the tank like crazy.
So I`m not sure how`s it gonna look for me now-but do really want to check the BM.Never had aggro issues before.Up till 2nite.
U said Nibbles was ready?My Pluton has already eaten all other pets in stables….guess have to unleash him for a while…
Preface: I haven’t check armory to see the enchants/gems you’re using.
Do you think part of the discrepency could be your enchants and gems? As a SV hunter, the +agl helps a bit more and if you were using those enchants and gems as a BM hunter, you might be gimping your dps a bit. It probably won’t make up for the 500 dps drop you’re still seeing, but it’s a though.
My enchants and gems are all almost identical to what they were when I was BM (haven’t gotten them all switch over, and when I was BM I had several agil enchants instead of AP enchants for various technical reasons).
Ahh. Gotcha, thanks!
I’m afraid to even go back to BM to try it out. I think it’d be even more disheartening for me.
bad time to BM untill 3.1
Quick question: did you activate trinkets or cast Bestial Wrath during your BM test; and did you do the equivalent in SV (not sure what those would be as I have never paid attention to SV).
Or do you simply test the baseline damage?
In general, i do not use trinkets or rapid fire or other cooldowns when testing dps on the dummy.
However, I did end up using Beastial Wrath on the BM side just to try anything to get the numbers up.
Frostheim,
I was wondering theorycrafts thoughts on having a Hunter of each spec in a raid, from the guides it seems each spec has pros and cons depending on the boss. Yet i see little regarding MM hunters and their potential for raid dps.
I am currently MM with a melee heavy raid so figured this was viable although some say hunters shouldn’t raid buff and it would be good to have the thoughts of someone who appears to still run with all 3 classes in their raids.
Are BM hunters still viable as raid support with the ferocious inspiration and arcane shot bonuses… or does the raid buffing not really factor in?
And lastly, what is the new preference of stacks for maximizing dps….
BM used to be stack crit and agil once you hit the hit cap.
Some argue that you stack ap over agil
then with the other specs – MM seems to favor INT while survival favors Stam.
Any thoughts on what the precedence is?
hit > crit > agil > attack power > armor pen > haste > int > stam ?
Having all three specs in a raid isn’t as worthwhile as it seems. Blame ret pallies. MM is the only raid buff that is really helpful.
Ret pallies have a +damage aura that does not stack with Ferocious Inspiration. Ret pallies have a HUGE mana regen. It stacks with SV, sure, but you really don’t need any more when you have the ret pallies there.
MM and BM want AP gems most.
SV wants agility gems the most.
You can’t say which is greater than which without discussing the *amount* of each. For SV 16 agil > 32 AP. For BM and MM 32 ap > 16 agil.
In general hit is really big, and armor pen is really low. Haste is really low for BM but okay for MM and SV.
I appreciate the insight – gives me some more to think about. So having 1 MM in a raid can prove useful, especially if melee heavy. Now you covered agility vs AP… how does Crit stack vs AP for hunters?
I know its a lot of math and I’ve been playing numbers and running combos for quite some time to see how to maximize the individual areas for dps. But having second opinions is ALWAYS nice;-) Seeing all the comparisons in a guide would likely be highly beneficial I would think.
And I LOVE the extra insights this site has given me because I’ve never been bored enough to test the specs unbuffed;-)
Here is another question for the theory craft – in raids with the “Blessing of Kings” you get upto 10% extra stats. Now a MM hunter gets extra AP from both Agil and Int, a Survival with the right spec gets AP from Stam, Agil and Int, while a BM only gets Agil and Int to a certain degree.
In this case stacking agil would give increased AP and Crit, whereas stacking AP would not grant any extra crit. Would the DPS not balance out or be slightly higher with the extra crit by stacking agil provided you had the BoK buff?
16 agil red gem gives 16 ap and 8.4 pts crit rating — slightly more than the 16 ap/8 crit orange gem now add BoK and you get 1.6 extra agil for 1-2 more AP and enough to make your 8 into 9 pts crit
Now looking at the 32 ap gem, we get no bonus unless a MM has trueshot aura up which makes for 35 ap.
And for the MM hunter lets not forget “Combat Experience” which gives 4% extra agil and Int which that 4% of int is extra pure AP, as is the Agility. Which should bring it that much closer to adding even more AP.
I know most of this is raw numbers without talents factored in, but with this math in mind – is AP still better than pure agil (which also adds dodge for those rare times your asked to kite). But again seeking out others who can help point out flaws in my thought patterns or math.
Would you take BoK over BoM? (and same for your pet?)
thanks you very mach
Thanks you very mach.
Help
Ok so p until 3 days I was sv pulling between 3500 to almost 5k dps in 25man Ulduar. We took a break because everyone on the server was having problems entering ulduar(server issues) When we cam back my dps dropped i couldn’t even hit 3k. Other hunter in my group who is normally 2 to 300 under me was having same problem. So I did some research and apparently armor pen is best for mm hunters so I tried mm here is my build http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Caelestrasz&cn=Bonadea&gn=Selected and I am so not happy with my dps output with that either. Have I missed something did we get nerfed when i wasn’t looking Please anyone help I want my dps back. Oh ya I am not a wow dragqueen I am a girl so please don’t call me dude
Strange place for this conversation, but hey: theorycraft suggests that armor pen becomes better than agility only *after* you have around 600 armor pen rating total. If, like most hunters, you don’t have nearly that much, stick with agility.
Running Ulduar and then running it again with lower dps is not a relevant data point. Did you see a difference in your target dummy dps before and after? Keep in mind that your dps drop could be due to RNG, performance, or ANY OTHER CLASS IN THE GAME changing and changing the way their buffs affect your dps.
Nothin’ wrong with playing a chick character, even if you’re a dude.
Armor pen. is only better than agility past a certain point. If you’re able to stack it to about 600, give or take depending on the theorycrafting source, it passes Agi. as the best MM stat. Until then, no.
Check out the WHU guide for MM dps spec. There’s nothing overtly wrong with your spec, but it could probably use some tweaking.
“Eyeball” testing in dungeons isn’t always the best, because you could easily have different raid buffs, the fights could go differently, you might have an unlucky night with procs and crits, etc. I wouldn’t read too much into a one-night drop. Hunters haven’t been nerfed since the epic BM nerf of I think 3.0.8, and you should see your dps level out over time.
/target Frostheim
/shakefist
…yeah, beat me to it.
sorry for the location of this topic u can move it if u like and yes i did test on a target dummy and I am seeing the same results. What is your dps looking like in mm spec we have very similar gear and spec maybe it’s just my shot rotation is off.
thanks for all,this is very nice blog
sorry for the location of this topic u can move it if u like and yes i did test on a target dummy and I am seeing the same results. What is your dps looking like in mm spec we have very similar gear and spec maybe it’s just my shot rotation is off.
Check out the WHU guide for MM dps spec. There’s nothing overtly wrong with your spec, but it could probably use some tweaking.